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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:55 PM   #1021
VincentB_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Why can't Translohr run without it's guide rail? What makes it so "tram-y" (technically speaking) as opposed to the TVR?
Because of this (source: wikipedia)...

Translohr :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...jpg?uselang=fr

TVR :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...svg?uselang=fr

Because of its configuration, the TVR can easily run without its rail. But there's a serious drawback : it's much more prone to derailment than the Translohr.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 07:00 PM   #1022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.
Using your same arguments, I could demonstrate that the the MP 89 is not a metro, just because it has rubber wheels.

You know, the homologation procedure is practically the same for the Translohr and steel wheeled trams. The objectives of both systems are the same, the conditions in which they are working are the same, the capacities are roughly same. The Translohr is designed and built to be used just like a tram : even its internal structure follows the same design of every other low floor tram. It cannot be operated like a trolleybus and is certainly not considered as a road vehicle by the competent authorities. In fact, the tracks used by Translohr systems are zoned as railways by the authorities.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 08:08 PM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Gros Matou View Post
Using your same arguments, I could demonstrate that the the MP 89 is not a metro, just because it has rubber wheels.
What constitutes a metro, aka rapid transit, is an entirely different discussion, as this is mostly defined by characteristics such as exclusive right of way, no level crossings, etc., and far less by the type of vehicle used. Most often this is a steel-on-steel EMU, but it can also be monorail, maglev or rubber-tyred vehicles, etc.

That discussion is better suited for a Metro forum, as the definition of LRT, Translohr, etc., are enough to keep this forum occupied.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:04 PM   #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.
Stop your bad faith. You say that the Translohr isn't a tram just because it has tyres. In the same time, you claim that it's a trolleybus for the same reason.

The Translohr has a pantograph, like any other tram. Trolleybuses have trolley poles.
The Translohr can be bidirectionnal. A trolleybus is not bidirectionnal.
The Translohr is driven like a tram. A trolleybus is driven with a steering wheel, like any other bus.
The Translohr is subject to tram regulations. A trolleybus is subject to road regulations.

The fact is that the Translohr is NOT a trolleybus.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:08 PM   #1025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoccatArvo View Post
Stop your bad faith. You say that the Translohr isn't a tram just because it has tyres. In the same time, you claim that it's a trolleybus for the same reason.

The Translohr has a pantograph, like any other tram. Trolleybuses have trolley poles.
The Translohr can be bidirectionnal. A trolleybus is not bidirectionnal.
The Translohr is driven like a tram. A trolleybus is driven with a steering wheel, like any other bus.
The Translohr is subject to tram regulations. A trolleybus is subject to road regulations.

The fact is that the Translohr is NOT a trolleybus.
My point exactly. It is not a trolleybus, it is not a tram, it is a translohr.

All the other points you listed here I already recounted.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #1026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Except the guide rail, it is a trolleybus, whatever you think.
Translohr is much closer to a conventional tram than it is of a trolleybus.
You can't suggest otherwise.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:29 PM   #1027
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If you want a rational classification, you'll have to choose a scientific criterion: transportation engineering uses driver's tasks in order to divide “vehicles” in homogeneous groups. Going from A to B, a driver has to do a lot of activities that we usually imply with the word to drive and that activities can be grouped in main categories:
  1. Navigation, aka choosing the route
    • the driver is free to choose which route he follows ► INDIVIDUAL TRANSPORT, either private or public (TAXI)
    • routes are fixed, settled by a superior authority ► MASS TRANSIT
  2. Control, aka choosing the trajectory
    • there's a steering wheel whit which the driver can control the direction ► BUSES, TROLLEYBUSES, ETC.
    • the vehicle is constrained by a physical bond, without any steering device (guided transit system) ► TRAM, TRAIN, MONORAILS, ETC.
  3. Drive, aka choosing speed, acceleration, braking, and interacting whit other vehicles
    • the driver lead the vehicle under is own responsibility (visual march) ► TRAM, LIGTH RAIL, ETC.
    • the driver (when present) follows instructions the regulator gives him (signaling) ► TRAIN, METRO, ETC.
Each time a system fits partly in a group and partly in another, you have to put it in the lower group, that is the heavier from driver's perspective (hence tram-trains are in the end TRAM, although adapted to railway requirements). Metros systems are a subset of trains, regardless which kind vehicles they employ (conventional metro, rubber tire metro, monorails, cable metro like in Perugia or maglev like in Nagoya).
From this point of view there's no way you can deny that Translohr is a tram, even if you abominate it from the bottom of your heart.

Debating about the nature of Translohr is something that pops up in every thread related with this rubber-tire tram, and obviously I read a lot of theory, but none of them is at the same time universal (a legal criterion can attribute a system in different categories depending on the country), significant (criteria based on structural or mechanical features have little or no impact in service quantities) and rational (I assume personal preferences or unmeasurable aspect are absurd criteria, but not everyone thinks so). At last, the assumption “tram or train = steel wheels and tracks” is completely ineffective, neither sufficient (also bridge cranes transport things going on a pair of rails, but obviously they aren't freight trains) nor necessary ( maglev uses rails only when is starting or stopping, otherwise literally flies some millimeters over them, but a sane man will never state that for this reason maglevs are to be regarded as aircrafts that take off and land on rail, like planes - rubber tires on ground - and seaplanes - floats on water).
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Last edited by Yak79; December 17th, 2014 at 09:36 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:44 PM   #1028
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Thank you.

This is where is Translohr by using these criteria.
  1. Navigation, aka choosing the route
    • routes are fixed, settled by a superior authority ► MASS TRANSIT
  2. Control, aka choosing the trajectory
    • the vehicle is constrained by a physical bond, without any steering device (guided transit system) ► TRAM, TRAIN, MONORAILS, ETC.
  3. Drive, aka choosing speed, acceleration, braking, and interacting whit other vehicles
    • the driver lead the vehicle under is own responsibility (visual march) ► TRAM, LIGTH RAIL, ETC.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 09:47 PM   #1029
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This kind of semantic argument is rather dull to be honest. Debating the merits of a mode is all well and good when backed up with actual fact such as performance differences etc from proper studies.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:38 PM   #1030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
This kind of semantic argument is rather dull to be honest. Debating the merits of a mode is all well and good when backed up with actual fact such as performance differences etc from proper studies.
I'm sorry, but you can't define my post “semantic argument”: the classification system I exposed is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria have a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation capacity, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. Without any proper study, you can easily conclude that, since the vehicle serves as a tram (= a Translohr route belongs at the same capacity class), therefore it is certainly a tram.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 10:41 PM   #1031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post
I'm sorry, but you can't define my post “semantic argument”: the classification system I exposed is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria have a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation capacity, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. Without any proper study, you can easily conclude that, since the vehicle serves as a tram (= a Translohr route belongs at the same capacity class), therefore it is certainly a tram.
No, I wasn't referring to you. You brought clarity to the whole debacle above. I'm talking about the plague of a discussion that occurred previously.

Thank you for your contribution.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:25 PM   #1032
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Well, at least, opening a Translohr is a good thing to increase the activity of a thread about trams.
Very few activity during the previous months and then four pages in few days.

I think I should repost pictures about the opening T8 yesterday to not forget it because it is already several pages back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
After the T6 last saturday, the 9th parisian tram line opened today.
Say hello to the T8.
Unfortunately, the opening was at 4 pm when the sun begins to set.


Saint-Denis - Porte de Paris





Pierre de Geyter

Saint Denis - Gare, this where the T8 meet the T1.
The is the first crossing between two tram lines in Paris.

After Delaunay-Belleville where line splits into two branches.
The switch had a dysfunction, the driver had to move it manually.



The branch to Villetaneuse-Université

Blumenthal, notice the Z50000 train of Transilien H in the back.

Les Mobiles

Les Béatus, there is a junior high school here, a lot of excited kids.

Rose Bertin, the center of Épinay-sur-Seine with a shopping mall.









Épinay-sur-Seine - Gare

Épinay-Orgemont, the last stop with an island platform.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:50 PM   #1033
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I'd like to see pictures of the connecting link to the T8 shops. That little single track stretch has to be one of the most scenic parts of the Paris mass transit system, in my opinion.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 09:03 PM   #1034
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Mercedes Citaro G C2 on line 170
This line has just become articulated and and received the first articuled Citaro of the RATP network.








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Old December 18th, 2014, 10:46 PM   #1035
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Saint-Denis - Gare
The only place where two tram lines cross each other in Paris' tram network.







Tracks of the T1 like on the tracks of the T8, they built the beginning of a connection.


Note that the T1 and T8 have different names, T1 station is called "Gare de Saint-Denis" and the T8 station is called "Saint-Denis - Gare".
I much prefer the name "Gare de Saint-Denis".
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Old December 18th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #1036
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Don't you mean T8? You keep referring to T7 here.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 11:20 PM   #1037
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I have not yet realized that we have a T8.
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Old December 19th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #1038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VincentB_ View Post
@Skalka : apart the fact as i think that the Translohr IS closer to a tram than to trolleybus (from a user perspective, no doubt, i'm in a tram !), Silly walk made another mistake when he said that "The law does not a tram make".

At least in France, this is false. When a vehicle is involved in an accident, it's very important to legally define what the vehicule is, because the law applicable to trains and trams is not the same as the one applicable to car, trucks, or busses (it's much more easier for the victim to obtain a compensation in the second case). From this point of view, the Translohr is now considered as a tram.
That's sensible. In Germany, we only have two sorts of work rules: EBO for heavy rail and BOStrab for any other track-guided system. And something like Translohr is indeed a track-guided system, just like any other tram, monorail, subway etc. And I guess that any vehicle running under BOStrab auspices will be treated the same in an accident.


Quote:
@00Zy99 : the RATP does not think his network this way. That's the same thing with the subway : all lines are considered as isolated from the other, no tracks are shared. Sound probably strange but in fact, it's much more easier to manage : when there's a problem on a line, it has no effect on the other.
The lack of a network approach will be due to geography rather than orthodoxy. The lines needn't be innerconnected to such a degree in the beginning because they serve a tangential demand, it's like bitching about a Versailles tramway and a Saint-Denis tramway not being interconnected because categorism demanded for only one true Francilien tramway to exist.

Tramlink in London merely serves Croydon too, so what? If tangential network fringes mature enough, they may indeed interconnect for synergic effects and resemble an orbital network on paper, but they don't serve an orbital purpose per se. It's more about the general accessibility of said fringes and whereas the improved capacity and visibility of LRT vis-à-vis busses does its part for a better functionality of the fringes on their own, they will mostly live from being feeder lines to rapid transit and that's often enough to make them viable. The desired orbital purpose will be the job of future Métro line 15 of Grand Paris Express project.

In essence, the fringes of the metropoles are populous enough to deserve stand-alone tram systems. Big cities like (East) Berlin and Vienna have an average of four full-fledged depots, so let's say that 400,000 denizens is the maximum acceptable threshold for a depot to urge remote lines to take a longer ride instead of building an additional depot that better distributes the waggons throughout a city. Splitting said "ballooned" depot in two means that 200,000 denizens make a good starting point in order to create a local isolated tram network with its own infrastructure. And these 200,000 denizens should easily be achieved in a small stretch of banlieue, right?
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Old December 19th, 2014, 01:51 PM   #1039
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Weekday ridership of the tram lines according a document distributed by STIF during the opening of T6

179,000 passangers
196,000 passengers
181,000 passengers
90,000 passengers
34,300 passnegers
49,000 passengers
23,000 passengers

Prevision
82,000 passengers
60,400 passengers
70,000 passengers
25,000 passengers

The ridership of the T7 is rather disappointing, I hope it will get better in the future, especially with the extension to Juvisy.
They hope 40,000 passengers in this extension.
The line that the T7 replaces was linking Villejuif Louis Aragon with Juvisy.

The T10 seems rather useless, this is more like a gift to make happy some suburban mayors (including the President of the general council of the powerful Hauts-de-Seine department).

With the two planned extensions of the T1 would have 110,000 passengers. With the opening of those, the line T1 will be cut in two.
The extension of the T3b would have 76,000 passengers
The extension of the T4 would have 37,000 passengers
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Old December 20th, 2014, 11:57 PM   #1040
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Saint-Denis - Porte de Paris



Delaunay-Belleville





César



Rose Bertin






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