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Old September 30th, 2015, 11:38 PM   #1221
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Tramway T10 Antony-Clamart

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Old October 9th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #1222
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From Rail Journal:

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http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=526

Paris Tram Express South construction to start next year
Friday, October 09, 2015



A €455m financing plan for the first phase of Paris's Tram Express South tram-train line was approved by the board of Ile-de-France Transport Authority, bringing the project a step closer to construction, which is due to start in the first half of next year

Stif has approved an initial €76m allocation for the project, 53% of which will come from the Ile de France government with the French state contributing 28%, the department of Essonne 15%, and infrastructure manager SNCF Network 4%

...
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Old October 17th, 2015, 02:50 AM   #1223
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Three tram routes photographed, 2, 3a and 6:


421 Musée de Sévres 13 September 2015


452 Porte de Versailles 13 September 2015


319 Porte de Versailles 13 September 2015


608 Chatillon Montrouge 13 September 2015

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmu...s/Paris-Trams/
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Old October 18th, 2015, 08:11 PM   #1224
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Anne Hidalgo (Paris mayor) is on the record about supporting the idea of a tram line that crosses Paris east-west either via Rivoli or via the quais: http://www.lejdd.fr/JDD-Paris/Le-pla...a-Paris-755585
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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:57 AM   #1225
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Yes, but... Anne Hidalgo said, that she wishes a tramway of a new generation: Without rails and overhead wires. So, that sounds like a classic bus to me!
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Old October 19th, 2015, 07:58 AM   #1226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metr0p0litain View Post
Yes, but... Anne Hidalgo said, that she wishes a tramway of a new generation: Without rails and overhead wires. So, that sounds like a classic bus to me!
Not to me. Trams tend to be longer and higher capacity than buses, so there would need to be some type of guidance system even if it wasn't traditional tracks.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 11:53 AM   #1227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Not to me. Trams tend to be longer and higher capacity than buses, so there would need to be some type of guidance system even if it wasn't traditional tracks.
So it would be just a very long guided bus.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 12:39 PM   #1228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Trams tend to be longer and higher capacity than buses
Even if you think about bi-articulated buses (25m, 200 passagers) and you compare with, for example, the Citadis Compact (22m, 171 passengers) ?
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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:05 PM   #1229
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Yes, even when I think of rare exceptions, the fact remains that trams tend to be loner than buses.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:21 PM   #1230
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Personally I'd be happy even with a BHNS line (bus à haut niveau de service) or more, as I happen to think that the surface is not serviced well enough.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 06:25 PM   #1231
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Trams are longer than buses, but also, tram is a rail vehicle. Without "rail(s)" it is not a tram. It is a bus. Here, some people were arguing about Translohr, which has one rail. Long vehicle with rubber tyres, without any track... would be, no doubt, just a very long bus.
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Old October 19th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #1232
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I'm sorry, but your statement doesn't constitute an effectual criterion for classification. A good criterion must meet at least three requirements:
- usefulness - it must have a substantial practical impact on the matter to which it relates;
- unambiguity - it must attribute any item in one and only class, with no room for interpretation;
- universality - it must lead to the same result, whatever the circumstances.

Your criterion doesn't meet neither the first nor the second one:
  • having rails or not has only a minimal effect on the vehicle manufacturer/infrastructure builder and no on from the users and operators point of view;
  • this way its impossible to draw a line between trams and trains; plus, it works for trams (for better or worse, since there's an annoying exception, the Translohr), but metros are split in a lot of unnecessary classes (it's instead obvious that Paris metro lines belong to the same group, regardless they're rubber-tired or conventional) and finally it can lead to absurd conclusions: even bridge cranes transport things going on a pair of rails, but obviously they aren't freight trains.

I suggest to use this useful, rational approach which I already posted here some months ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post
If you want a rational classification, you'll have to choose a scientific criterion: transportation engineering uses driver's tasks in order to divide “vehicles” in homogeneous groups. Going from A to B, a driver has to do a lot of activities that we usually imply with the word to drive and that activities can be grouped in main categories:
  1. Navigation, aka choosing the route
    • the driver is free to choose which route he follows ► INDIVIDUAL TRANSPORT, either private or public (TAXI)
    • routes are fixed, settled by a superior authority ► MASS TRANSIT
  2. Control, aka choosing the trajectory
    • there's a steering wheel whit which the driver can control the direction ► BUSES, TROLLEYBUSES, ETC.
    • the vehicle is constrained by a physical bond, without any steering device (guided transit system) ► TRAM, TRAIN, MONORAILS, ETC.
  3. Drive, aka choosing speed, acceleration, braking, and interacting whit other vehicles
    • the driver lead the vehicle under is own responsibility (visual march) ► TRAM, LIGTH RAIL, ETC.
    • the driver (when present) follows instructions the regulator gives him (signaling) ► TRAIN, METRO, ETC.
Each time a system fits partly in a group and partly in another, you have to put it in the lower group, that is the heavier from driver's perspective (hence tram-trains are in the end TRAM, although adapted to railway requirements). Metros systems are a subset of trains, regardless which kind vehicles they employ (conventional metro, rubber tire metro, monorails, cable metro like in Perugia or maglev like in Nagoya).
From this point of view there's no way you can deny that Translohr is a tram, even if you abominate it from the bottom of your heart.
...
this classification system is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria not only meet the above requirements, but have also a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation capacity, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. So Translohr is certainly a tram - in a manner of speaking, it barks like a dog … - while you can't say the same about other so-called guided bus (optical,magnetic or whatever) an even about the now-defunct Bombardier TVR: they has a steering device, and they're really able to steer, then they falls under the bus class and its “constraints” (no offense meant to mayor Hidalgo, obviously ).

PS. My apologies: lexical choices I made may not be fully proper, but I don't master specialized English phraseology and I tried my best.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 01:22 AM   #1233
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A couple more:


706 Villejuif Louis Aragon 14 September 2015


712 Porte de Rungis 14 September 2015


705 & Concorde Porte de L'Essonne 14 September 2015


705 Porte de L'Essonne 14 September 2015

More here:
https://transportsceneireland.smugmu...s/Paris-Trams/
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Old October 20th, 2015, 01:54 AM   #1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post
I'm sorry, but your statement doesn't constitute an effectual criterion for classification. A good criterion must meet at least three requirements:
- usefulness - it must have a substantial practical impact on the matter to which it relates;
- unambiguity - it must attribute any item in one and only class, with no room for interpretation;
- universality - it must lead to the same result, whatever the circumstances.

Your criterion doesn't meet neither the first nor the second one:
  • having rails or not has only a minimal effect on the vehicle manufacturer/infrastructure builder and no on from the users and operators point of view;
  • this way its impossible to draw a line between trams and trains; plus, it works for trams (for better or worse, since there's an annoying exception, the Translohr), but metros are split in a lot of unnecessary classes (it's instead obvious that Paris metro lines belong to the same group, regardless they're rubber-tired or conventional) and finally it can lead to absurd conclusions: even bridge cranes transport things going on a pair of rails, but obviously they aren't freight trains.

I suggest to use this useful, rational approach which I already posted here some months agothis classification system is based on a solid scientific ground because its criteria not only meet the above requirements, but have also a substantial effect on parameters like length of each vehicle, headway and speed (both max and commercial), and trough them they are critical in determining transportation capacity, the far apart most important service quantity in planning and operating a transport system. So Translohr is certainly a tram - in a manner of speaking, it barks like a dog … - while you can't say the same about other so-called guided bus (optical,magnetic or whatever) an even about the now-defunct Bombardier TVR: they has a steering device, and they're really able to steer, then they falls under the bus class and its “constraints” (no offense meant to mayor Hidalgo, obviously ).

PS. My apologies: lexical choices I made may not be fully propor, but I don't master specialized English phraseology and I tried my best.
I said that "Long vehicle with rubber tyres, without any track... would be, no doubt, just a very long bus.". Translohr has one rail, it was just an example of similiar discussion in this topic, but while you can call Translohr a tram, because it has rail, you can't call vehicle without rail a tram. That was the point.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:07 PM   #1235
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I didn't misunderstood your post at all; my point is: what makes a tram (its distinctive feature) isn't being a rail vehicle, but being a guided transit system driven under line of sight control.
Until recently, all trams were actually rail vehicles, but this remark was nevertheless well based: since some vehicles can be used (and are indeed used) as a tramcar or as a unit for metro train-set, nothing in the vehicle itself could be used defining what a tram is. The whole thing has become more noticeable once Translohr appeared: the only way you can group it with other trams, as it seem logical to do, is extending the use of “rail vehicle” out of its common meaning (= a vehicle that runs on rails) until its literal meaning (= a vehicle that is related to a rail), and this obviously lead to some debate.
Using a more accurate (or engineering, if you prefer) definition not only this controversy is solved at root, but a thing became also clear: also a vehicle with rubber tires could be a tram, if only integrated a device that allows the driver not to worry about choosing and maintaining the trajectory.

The plain and simple fact is that in this field, the only successful (aka which at least manages to fulfill the above-mentioned requirement) attempt to avoid the tracks - which provide, among a lot of other function, the needed constraint in conventional tram system - requires anyway a single steel rail.
Those other pseudo-guided bus I cited in my previous post (and to which mayor Hidalgo probably refers) fail from the start, since they're unable to effectively substitute this function of rails and therefore to bring up themselves from bus to tram class - putting aside that they're also, generally speaking, a technical fiasco.

Maybe in the future something could change, but currently your statement, albeit inaccurate, it's indeed true: all trams are lato sensu rail vehicle.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 07:48 PM   #1236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post

I didn't misunderstood your post at all; my point is: what makes a tram (its distinctive feature) isn't being a rail vehicle, but being a guided transit system driven under line of sight control.
No, what makes a tram is also that it rides on rails. A guided bus does not, a translohr does not, so these are not trams.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 09:22 PM   #1237
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Could you please adduce some technical reason for what you are saying, just like I tried to do; maybe something useful for a transportation engineer and not a simple tautology. Otherwise your statement is no more than a personal, irrelevant belief.
It's slightly upsetting when you struggle to explain and demonstrate something, moreover in a language you don't speak very well, and someone counter in a way that somewhat resound like “because I said so!”.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 09:50 PM   #1238
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I think that Silly Walks considers Translohr not to be a real tram for the same reason he may also consider rubber-tyred metros not to be real metros: If the tires break, the rail does no good in moving the vehicle and that this problem doesn't arise at more traditional vehicles with steel wheels. IIRC, that's also why rubber-tyred metro waggons have emergency steel wheels just in case to help itself out of a broken situation.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 10:39 PM   #1239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post

Could you please adduce some technical reason for what you are saying
Trams ride on rails, that's just what they do. Simple as that.


"A tram (also known as tramcar; and in North America known as streetcar, trolley or trolley car) is a rail vehicle which runs on tracks along public urban streets (called street running), and also sometimes on a segregated right of way.[1]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram
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Old October 20th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skalka View Post
I think that Silly Walks considers Translohr not to be a real tram for the same reason he may also consider rubber-tyred metros not to be real metros: If the tires break, the rail does no good in moving the vehicle and that this problem doesn't arise at more traditional vehicles with steel wheels. IIRC, that's also why rubber-tyred metro waggons have emergency steel wheels just in case to help itself out of a broken situation.
Metro's have a far wider definition than just their type of wheels or tracks (frequency, complete grade separation, etc). Although I personally find rubber-tyred metros to not be very comfortable, if they adhere to metro-specs, they are metro.

Translohr doesn't ride on rails, it just uses one for guidance. It's a special type of guided bus.
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