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Old October 20th, 2015, 11:26 PM   #1241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Translohr doesn't ride on rails, it just uses one for guidance. It's a special type of guided bus.
On the other hand, a Translohr can't just (accidently or on purpose) jump off its guiding rail as a TVR vehicle did. Even if a Translohr moves on its stabilizers or "support wheels", it's designed to be so disabled that it can only move on the course of its rail, never jumping off. So even if a Translohr doesn't exactly ride on its rail, it's still a rail vehicle as it can't run without the pan in the ground in its rail which is kind of a socket to the "plug" at the underside of the vehicle.

I can see the problems why Translohr can be seen as an abomination of a tram rather than a real tram, but then again, it's like saying that the only true S-Bahn systems in the world were those in Berlin and maybe Hamburg just because they were first all the others got no third rail or an even remotely metro-like independence from other modes of traffic. That's just bean counting or comma-f***ing.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 12:52 AM   #1242
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People keep bringing up metro or S-Bahn, which have rather loose definitions regarding type of rolling stock.

In this case, however, we were discussing trams, and not metro or S-Bahn. The fact of the matter is that trams ride on rails. Simple as that. You might not like it, but that's the way it is. You might like Translohr, that's entirely up to you. But you liking it does NOT make it a tram.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 12:58 AM   #1243
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The problem is that I actually don't like Translohr. And as we're at it, there's even a mode of transport called aerial tramway (that's a ropeway) which definitely doesn't run on rails. On the other hand, its very nature allows for course other modes of transport hardly allow. Getting over the East River between Manhattan and Long Island without digging a tunnel.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 01:03 AM   #1244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skalka View Post
And as we're at it, there's even a mode of transport called aerial tramway (that's a ropeway) which definitely doesn't run on rails.
Which is why it is called an aerial tramway. It denotes a difference. Soy milk isn't milk, milk comes from mammals. An aerial tramway isn't a tram, trams run on rails.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 02:14 AM   #1245
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@Silly_Walks
Even if you arrogantly repeat a thing countless times, refusing to give any reason, it won't became more true only for that.

Your wiki-based explanation is useless: firstly because this is a definition, not an exposition and, with my utmost respect for its valuable work, I really don't think Wikipedia is some sort of revealed, in which name you must disown you rationality; then because Wikipedia pages differs depending on the language, so its not universal, (and your quote isn't even the best version, unless you think also this is a tram).
I'm here, waiting to know why, in your opinion:
- the nature of road is so important, among other mechanical features (framework, engine, power supply devices, wheel-rail interaction, etc.);
- metro and S-bahn definition has to be wider than the tram's one, or loser regarding type of rolling stock;
- my supposed liking Translohr doesn't make it a tram, but your obvious hating it do make it not to be a tram.

Anyway, there's not a thing like a guided bus; it's a contradiction in terms: if it is a bus, it'll have a steering device and so it won't be really guided, if it's guided, it won't have any steering device and so it won't be really a bus. Guided bus is only a business catch-phrase, coined only for marketing purposes.

PS. this whole thing has very little to do with Translohr, from which you are clearly obsessed: I repost an explanation made about the nature of Translohr only because it can be effective in pointing out a better objection against cited official mayoral statements than the mere “rail issue”.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 02:45 AM   #1246
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Please; stop these stupid recurrent discussions about sex of angels, or open special thread for that ..
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Old October 21st, 2015, 02:59 AM   #1247
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My apologies for my posts being blatantly OT and a little disputatious .
Before stopping here and now this controversy, I really don't want to be or appear self-righteous, hence I've to add a clarification: the definition I use is only one possible definition of tram; I think it's a good, effective and well based one: I hope I 've been good enough in explaining why.
But definitions are per se conventional and can change as time goes by, and it's obviously welcome any alternative definition, but those without a rational base or founded only upon tradition or authority.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 11:45 AM   #1248
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The thing what people love about tramways is the high quality of ride and the well built infrastructure. Rails give people the promise of "something will come along". A bus can change its way every time and as a passenger you can't be sure that you're on the right place to wait for it. We've seen the growing number of cities with new tram lines in France and it's no secret that people find it cool to ride by tram, because they're tired of the poor ride quality of buses.

The french tramway is a big success, because it's modern and compares the best a classic tramway offers. With a tramway of "a new generation without rails and overhead wires" there is a risk to damage the reputation of modern tramways in France. People aren't stupid and even if you write "Tram" on a bus, it still will be what it was before...
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Old October 22nd, 2015, 04:08 AM   #1249
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I think that people should stop to take Anne Hidalgo seriously, she just say that to show that she had project in mind.
She wants that the media talk about her. She sees the management of the city as an extensive advertising campaign.

The municipal office of the City of Paris should help funding subway extension, it would be better.
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Old October 23rd, 2015, 11:18 PM   #1250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metr0p0litain View Post
The french tramway is a big success, because it's modern and compares the best a classic tramway offers. With a tramway of "a new generation without rails and overhead wires" there is a risk to damage the reputation of modern tramways in France. People aren't stupid and even if you write "Tram" on a bus, it still will be what it was before...
Don't be so sure. In Nancy, there is no tram, but a TVR from Bombardier. Technically, it's a guided trolleybus. But lots of people think it's a tram, because it's called "tram" by the local public transportation company and by the local politicians. It's the same in Caen.

In some others cities, such as Nîmes, the politicians invented ludicrous names like "tram'bus" for the BRT systems.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 05:28 AM   #1251
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Quote:
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In some others cities, such as Nîmes, the politicians invented ludicrous names like "tram'bus" for the BRT systems.
Wow I was about to mention Nimes...
I think they named it A Tram because they wanted it to be converted into one in the future (though they just opened the BRT) it would save them the hassle of renaming everything.

Maybe their definition of tram is: Something that is articulated that is fast and comfortable, which is basically a BHNS.
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Old October 24th, 2015, 04:06 PM   #1252
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Quote:
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Wow I was about to mention Nimes...
I think they named it A Tram because they wanted it to be converted into one in the future (though they just opened the BRT) it would save them the hassle of renaming everything.
No, it's more marketing. They don't want to say they're building a BRT line when the other cities are building trams. They chose buses with a special design (Irisbus Crealis Neo) to look more "modern", but it's also more expansive.

In France, people prefer the tram. So when it's called tram, it's more attractive than when it's called "bus à haut niveau de service".
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Old November 2nd, 2015, 03:37 PM   #1253
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Pics taken during the heritage days.

Those vehicules are currently located in a warehouse, near Villeneuve triage station.

An icon, like the Sprague : the Renault TN. They were introduced in the 30's and in use until 1971.





After the liberation of Paris, many busses had been destroyed, or damaged beyond repair ; many other had been so overused during the german occupation that they had to be scrapped. There was an urgent need for new busses. But the Renault factory was itself partially destroyed and suffered from a lack of workers and the scarcity of steel.

As a result, it was decided that the factory would built only the chassis, and that the bodywork would be built by the RATP in its workshops ; these busses has a different look from those built by Renault ; to date they are still the only busses built by the RATP :



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Old November 4th, 2015, 12:32 PM   #1254
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A postwar bus built by Somua ; it is still well remembered because a scale model was produced by Dinky Toys.





A trolleybus built by Vetra. Trolleybusses were introduced in Paris during the war because of the lack of fuel. They were replaced by busses in 1966.



A Chausson - one of the last built (Chausson was a subsidiary of Saviem, now Renault Trucks) :





To reduce maintenance costs, it was decided in the 60's to buy a single standard model that would replace all the different models in service.

A request for proposal was issued aud three companies responded : Saviem, Berliet, and Verney (the latest didn't go beyond the prototype stage).
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Old November 4th, 2015, 01:15 PM   #1255
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Quote:
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Chausson
The Chausson factory in Asnières?
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Old November 9th, 2015, 05:12 PM   #1256
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Yes (but there was also a factory in Gennevilliers...)
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Old November 10th, 2015, 11:46 AM   #1257
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Yes, Chausson's main factory was there.

Two prototypes were selected : the Saviem (later Renault) SC 10 and the the Berliet PCM.

The SC 10 would be a huge success in France and had a lengthy career.

As a kid, I preferred the Berliet because of its impressive radiator grill. However, they suffered badly from corrosion (the chassis was made of steel and the bodywork of aluminium).

This SC 10 was used as a free shuttle between Villeneuve Triage station and the exhibit :



From the left to the right :

- a Berliet PCM ;
- a Berliet PCMR ; this derivative of the PCM was a failed attempt for a revival of the doubledeckers in Paris. They proved to be difficult to use in the streets of a city where there are many trees ; people were reluctant to go to the upper level as the rides in busses are most of the time very short (for longer ride, we use the subway) ; but most of all, I remember very well that I had the fear of my life the first time I used one of them : the shock absorbers were very soft (many streets in Paris are still cobbled) and that gave the very unpleasant feeling that the bus would fall appart in the curves (moreover I usually become very quickly seasick) ;
- a Renault SC 10 (latest facelift).



Berliet PGR ; another derivative of the PCM but narrower end shorter.

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Old November 10th, 2015, 04:22 PM   #1258
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Nice. On the site of the Chausson Bros factory in Asnières there is a nice little park now, with only the frontispiece of the factory remaining, installed there by the authorities together with a signpost with the tale of the factory.





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Old November 10th, 2015, 04:24 PM   #1259
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In other news, the works for the prolongation of the T1 from the current Asnières end towards the T2 in Colombes have started in November. The official website here: http://www.t1ouest.fr/#&panel1-3

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Old November 16th, 2015, 03:10 PM   #1260
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The rear of this SC 10 had been badly damaged in an accident. A worker of the RATP then came with the idea to rebuilt it with an open air platform, like the old pre-war Renault TN.



This prototype became extremely popular and this version was later produced by Renault for several cities.

In fact, I didn't like to stand on the platform because it was just over the exhausts...



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