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Old May 29th, 2016, 07:12 AM   #1301
Nexis
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Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?
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Old May 29th, 2016, 09:04 AM   #1302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtehpanda
The issue is that unlike actual trains, monorails are a vendor-locked technology. Why would I invest in something that lasts 40 years if no manufacturer will support it or if the manufacturer that did supported it doesn't exist in 40 years? At least with light rail or trains you have a choice.
The same could be applied to guided bus way as well.

Or we may need a standard for guided bus way.

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/foru...onorail/page-2

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Old May 29th, 2016, 02:26 PM   #1303
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Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?
Not particularly: in Venezia-Mestre network the crawl at 70 km/h, a good speed in urban context, over the trans-lagunar bridge (Ponte della Libertà, more than 3 km long) with no relevant issues.
Running on rubber tires, it could theoretically have better acceleration/deceleration standards, but these are anyway limited in order to ensure a safe and comfortable march for passengers. This asset, however, provides a good emergency braking (up to 3 m/s²) with the same equipment used in operating braking (disk brakes with ABS), while conventional tramcars must be equipped with magnetic track brake to achieve a similar performance.


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Originally Posted by mrsmartman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobtehpanda
The issue is that unlike actual trains, monorails are a vendor-locked technology. Why would I invest in something that lasts 40 years if no manufacturer will support it or if the manufacturer that did supported it doesn't exist in 40 years? At least with light rail or trains you have a choice.
The same could be applied to guided bus way as well.

Or we may need a standard for guided bus way.

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/foru...onorail/page-2

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Those issues are more relevant - for both monorails and tramway on tires - in short/medium term, when:
- a vendor-locked technology means monopoly, with all its flaws (unbalanced relationship between counterparts, no competitive tenders for further vehicles, etc.);
- a sudden manufacturer bankruptcy or product discontinuation may leave purchasers in trouble with lack of spare parts and eventual fleet growing needs.
However, differences in this respect are less significant now than in the past, due the increasing widespread of turnkey solutions in mass transit market (we can think, e. g., at driverless “light” metros, or urban cable system).

Conversely, in long term patents will expire and procurement of new rolling stock won't be a serious matter, even in case of a unique technology: despite being a almost the only one of its kind, Wuppertal's Schwebebahn replaced its cars (GTW 72 by MAN) in early 70s, seventy years after its opening, and purchased a new fleet (GTW G15) by Vossloh Kiepe in 2011, paying new vehicles 3,9 M€ each (a bit expensive, but not absurd).
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Old May 29th, 2016, 02:42 PM   #1304
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Turnkey solutions are fatty.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 06:09 PM   #1305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?
Ride quality of a Translor is equivalent to a bus.

Tramway runs on rails, no concrete or asphalt surface can be as smooth as rail.

Yes Translor is very dependent on the CLEAN Rail, because the rail has huge gaps lots of thing fall there and the rolling material is easily damaged.

Problems when it snows.

Concrete also damages after some years because the wheels run on the same spot.

Rolling material costs a lot of money, and they need exclusively tires from Michelline.

It is a cunning move from French government to tie a city with their Translohr so they will never ever be able to buy any parts from another supplier. The stupid cities that have adopted the system, well their problem

Paris built the 2 lines to have workers busy because Lohr industries went into bankruptcy and had to sell Translohr division, so Alstom bought it to prevent Chinese CSR to buy it.


Translohr has some theoritical advantages in compare with a normal tram which in fact are no advantages.

2.20 m wide. modern tramways can be as wide as this also, CAF is building trams fro St. Etienne with a width of 2.15mm

13% slopes, in no city Translohr has such inclines, normal tramways also can achieve this ramps, for example Bombardier trams in Augsburg with 11% incline possibility.

turning radius 10,5 meters. well Bombardier builds the trams fro Toronto with a turning radius of 10.89 meters so no advantage.

Building costs are as high or even higher in compare with normal trams. Seen in practice.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 08:24 PM   #1306
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I really do wish you stop here your personal crusade against Translhor, which you never miss to badmouth whenever someone post about it:
  • firstly, your answer has no relevance at all with respect to Nexis question;
  • then, I highly doubt you ever rode a Translohr and therefore your statement about march comfort are merely based on prejudice or hearsay;
  • finally, your criticism, although not entirely preposterous, are nevertheless blatantly biased, exaggerated and dotted with some inaccuracies here and there (projects and procurements for Paris lines are far previous than Lohr crisis, Ayacucho line in Medellin reaches 125 ‰, etc.).
Despite being a huge tram enthusiast, I'm well aware where the boundaries between technical facts and personal tastes are: therefore I try my best to keep a balanced and unbiased perspective.
Conversely, I find slightly annoying and useless when someone pollutes a technical forum with his hateful rants, but this is clearly my point of view: I see someone even liked your umpteenth reiteration of generic contempt against this technology.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 08:47 PM   #1307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post


I really do wish you stop here your personal crusade against Translhor, which you never miss to badmouth whenever someone post about it:
  • firstly, your answer has no relevance at all with respect to Nexis question;
  • then, I highly doubt you ever rode a Translohr and therefore your statement about march comfort are merely based on prejudice or hearsay;
  • finally, your criticism, although not entirely preposterous, are nevertheless blatantly biased, exaggerated and dotted with some inaccuracies here and there (projects and procurements for Paris lines are far previous than Lohr crisis, Ayacucho line in Medellin reaches 125 ‰, etc.).
Despite being a huge tram enthusiast, I'm well aware where the boundaries between technical facts and personal tastes are: therefore I try my best to keep a balanced and unbiased perspective.
Conversely, I find slightly annoying and useless when someone pollutes a technical forum with his hateful rants, but this is clearly my point of view: I see someone even liked your umpteenth reiteration of generic contempt against this technology.
I rode translohr in Paris both lines and in Venezia, so I know it low ride quality especially compared to tram, you should perfectly know that no concrete or asphalt based rubber tired public transport mode can be smoother than a tram riding on rails.

Ayacucho translohr line in Medellin by far could be the only place where this system shoul have been built ever, you can clearly see that in no other cities Translohr uses its "so called advantages" against tram.

There are by far no cities in the world with a need of long multiple section tram lines on 13% ramps, as well as the need of a 10,5 meter radius.

as of personal thing well Systra is currently in my town Tbilisi trying to push Translohr thing here because our modern future tramway system will have curves as tight as 18 meter on some places, Systra knows that with an open tender ALSTOM will never win the tender with their rigid bogie CITADIS trams with their 25 meter radiuses so not to lose the money they push Translohr appealing that normal trams can not take such radius. Well there are other manufacturers in the world making great adapted trams on any radius so thats why I am saying that French Government is trying to lobby this translohr thing everywhere they can to somehow sell it. Well my city is not a test field fro them and we do not want to be tied with this manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Are the Translohr trams slower then the regular trams?
You can clearly see here that translohrs are always overtaken in speed on the mentioned bridge in Venezia where they supposedly run with 70 km/h

here city buses overtake them
https://youtu.be/Ctylr9D1UlU?t=3m6s

the same happens here
https://youtu.be/8V76E-akzCs?t=4m24s

this is the only "speedy" section of translohrs, because in other cities they normally run max 40 km/h.

In Padova you can clearly see low ride quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjlPojTD7y8
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Old May 29th, 2016, 08:59 PM   #1308
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Are the Rive-Gauche and Rive-Droite underground Translohr stations in Viroflay of identical design?
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Old May 30th, 2016, 01:33 AM   #1309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
I rode translohr in Paris both lines and in Venezia, so I know it low ride quality especially compared to tram, you should perfectly know that no concrete or asphalt based rubber tired public transport mode can be smoother than a tram riding on rails.
...
And you should know (having tested it) that Translohr could be at worst bumpy in its own way, and not in the same way as buses: its structural design, and therefore its dynamic behavior, is if anything similar (not equal) to a classical tram with Jakobs bogies, and far away from an articulated bus.
You also should know that also a modern multiarticulated tramcar “on rails” can be really awful when used in a legacy network: putting aside poor maintained tracks, even the absence of transition curves is more than enough to guarantee a very uncomfortable journey.
Hence, the equalities trams on rails = always smooth ride and trams on tires = bus-like ride are both false.


Quote:
...
Ayacucho translohr line in Medellin by far could be the only place where this system shoul have been built ever, you can clearly see that in no other cities Translohr uses its "so called advantages" against tram.

There are by far no cities in the world with a need of long multiple section tram lines on 13% ramps, as well as the need of a 10,5 meter radius.
...
The basis of your previous evaluation about Translohr features are flawed, since you aren't accounting a main point: you compared operating performances of standard version on one side (Translohr) and peak performances of different customized versions on the other (steel-wheeled trams). One thing is believing that there's no need of those strong points, another is claiming that those strong point doesn't exist (and the latter statement is false).


Quote:
...
You can clearly see here that translohrs are always overtaken in speed on the mentioned bridge in Venezia where they supposedly run with 70 km/h

here city buses overtake them
https://youtu.be/Ctylr9D1UlU?t=3m6s

the same happens here
https://youtu.be/8V76E-akzCs?t=4m24s

this is the only "speedy" section of translohrs, because in other cities they normally run max 40 km/h.
...
Since the tram in Venezia is roughly criticized (as well as any mass transit project in Italy), but I never heard anything about it being slower than what is officially declared, I simply assumed that it really run at 70 km/h. Anyway, the second video proves only that at least in some cases they go at a lower speed (51,1 km/average on the 3,4 km bridge section), and not that Translohr can't reach and maintain 70 km/h.
Plus, in a standard urban context all tramways normally run max 40 km/h, and the average speed is considerably lower when they run in mixed traffic sections.


Quote:
...
as of personal thing well Systra is currently in my town Tbilisi trying to push Translohr thing here because our modern future tramway system will have curves as tight as 18 meter on some places, Systra knows that with an open tender ALSTOM will never win the tender with their rigid bogie CITADIS trams with their 25 meter radiuses so not to lose the money they push Translohr appealing that normal trams can not take such radius. Well there are other manufacturers in the world making great adapted trams on any radius so thats why I am saying that French Government is trying to lobby this translohr thing everywhere they can to somehow sell it. Well my city is not a test field fro them and we do not want to be tied with this manufacturer.
...
So, in the end there is a personal reason behind you hate against this technology! A reason that I respect, even though I don't agree with - IMHO, any tramway project should be welcomed, regardless which kind of tram, once expected ridership is enough to justify it.
That said, your city authorities choice won't be affected no matter how many time you declare your loathing or how many proselytes you'll make on this forum: we are already well aware of your opinion on this subject, and by now we also know why, therefore I kindly renew my request to quit your hammering.
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Old May 30th, 2016, 07:13 AM   #1310
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Third party vendor could be the underwriter of metropolitan transportation system in the form of BOT model.

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Old May 30th, 2016, 07:28 AM   #1311
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Could the advantage of rubber wheel be less noisy?
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Old May 30th, 2016, 07:30 AM   #1312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsmartman View Post
Third party vendor could be the overwriter of metropolitan transportation system in the form of BOT model.
What do you mean by overwriter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsmartman View Post
Could the advantage of rubber wheel be less noisy?
The two are roughly equal if at top quality. Things deteriorate in both cases.
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Old May 30th, 2016, 09:16 AM   #1313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
What do you mean by overwriter?



The two are roughly equal if at top quality. Things deteriorate in both cases.
Edit: Underwriter.

It really depends on track condition. Underground concrete boxy track could produce much echo while unpolished steel curve could produce loud screechy sound.

See: MISC | Noisiest Metro?

Last edited by mrsmartman; May 30th, 2016 at 09:21 AM.
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Old May 30th, 2016, 11:40 AM   #1314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yak79 View Post
Translohr is not a tram, it is a long guided bus, and it is not welcomed in the city even less when it is labeled under the tram name.

You did not say anything about Padova and well we talk here about modern systems, Modern tramways run sleek and smooth while Translohr has the same bumpy ride as modern as you make it. After a short period of time concrete or asphalt starts to deteriorate and thing gets even worst.

Point is that our city hall already told Systra that we only need the steel wheel tram and on 1524 mm gauge, cause we want to link it with the railway for interurban ride, but they keep saying that we should only use tram in city boundaries and only on rubber tires so I find utterly offensive to hear things like that from them. I mean what they think of themselves, as I said Alstom has difficulties to build modern trams on 1524 mm and to be able to handle 18 meter curves, they see that building a tramway here, means that they can not participate in tender for rolling stock, so not to lose the whole contract they try to convince here the people to install this rubber tired "wannabetramlike" thing. That is one big fat cunning move from them so do not criticize me for hating.

The same thing they did in Riga telling them to change track gauge on 1435 mm and buy Citadis trams. Riga said big FAREWELL to Systra and bought perfect modern trams on pivoting bogies called Skoda 15T.
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Old May 31st, 2016, 04:31 AM   #1315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Are the Rive-Gauche and Rive-Droite underground Translohr stations in Viroflay of identical design?
Not exactly, there are a little bit different. But the two stations are from the same architect.
http://www.pierreschall.com

He also worked on the design of the underground stations of tramway line 2 in Nice.
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Old June 1st, 2016, 12:51 AM   #1316
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Some photos of the underground stations on the Internet.






https://twitter.com/StephaneDSS/stat...82117225918468

Another photo, taken before the commercial launch.



https://www.yvelines.fr/2016/05/26/l...sont-ouvertes/

These underground stations look like underground cathedrals.
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Old June 1st, 2016, 11:27 PM   #1317
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^ with a note of natural history museums
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Old June 2nd, 2016, 12:30 AM   #1318
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Stunning.
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Old June 12th, 2016, 06:27 PM   #1319
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Minato_ku, do you happen to know who is in charge of surface transport nodes? RATP or local authorities (like city halls)? I'm thinking of interchange nodes like say, the one at Chatillon-Montrouge. Also, would I be right to say that the one at Gabriel Péri (Asnières-Gennevilliers) is the worst in the inner ring of suburbs? Or maybe you've seen worse. Thanks in advance for any info
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Old June 12th, 2016, 10:09 PM   #1320
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It is often the RATP that is in charge of these.

Chatillon Montrouge bus interchange never had a heavy structure, it was just several bus shelters next to each other.
Now the area is the construction site for line 15. Bus stops are in the nearby streets.
Gabriel Péri Asnières-Gennevilliers doesn't seem worst than Bobigny Pablo Picasso, Pont de Sèvres and many other big bus stations built during the 1980s.
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