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Old August 9th, 2016, 11:03 AM   #1361
alexandru.mircea
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^ combining T2 and the T3 for a serious daily commute would be a very silly idea. We had exactly this situation when my partner found her new job, and taking the T3 from Porte d'Orléans then the T2 up to Colombes was out of the question, despite the easiness of the exchange and the reliability of trams: it's simply too slow and takes too much time. It doesn't make sense to take combinations of trams for long commutes when regional rail does this job much better. It's not trans-suburb express transport that needs improving as much as they need to target punctual and shorter distance itineraries with lots of potential travellers that are currently not well served.

Another long distance itinerary I recently tried with the tram that I tried was when I went to La Courneuve and I took a combination of bus (8 stops) and T1 (21 stops). Even if I had another tram to take to an exchange with the T1 I still wouldn't repeat this itinerary, it's just takes waay too much time. On the other hand with Transilen + Métro line 7 it is very quick. When Line 15 will be reality it will be even quicker.
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Old August 9th, 2016, 04:50 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by alexandru.mircea View Post
^ combining T2 and the T3 for a serious daily commute would be a very silly idea. We had exactly this situation when my partner found her new job, and taking the T3 from Porte d'Orléans then the T2 up to Colombes was out of the question, despite the easiness of the exchange and the reliability of trams: it's simply too slow and takes too much time. It doesn't make sense to take combinations of trams for long commutes when regional rail does this job much better. It's not trans-suburb express transport that needs improving as much as they need to target punctual and shorter distance itineraries with lots of potential travellers that are currently not well served.

Another long distance itinerary I recently tried with the tram that I tried was when I went to La Courneuve and I took a combination of bus (8 stops) and T1 (21 stops). Even if I had another tram to take to an exchange with the T1 I still wouldn't repeat this itinerary, it's just takes waay too much time. On the other hand with Transilen + Métro line 7 it is very quick. When Line 15 will be reality it will be even quicker.

French tramway systems have this huge problem, they are all designed and built to be slow unfortunately. Main goal of this systems is to be new face of the city nothing else. French do not have experience in other type of tramway systems. Just building them this way as they do ans using non manuverable rigid bogie citadis trams with very limited dynamic capabilities on curves and switches etc.
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Old August 9th, 2016, 06:08 PM   #1363
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Not at all, trams are slow only in comparison with express heavy rail like the RER and the Transilien, that's what I was saying.
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Old August 9th, 2016, 09:15 PM   #1364
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(Double post)

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Old August 9th, 2016, 09:20 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
French tramway systems have this huge problem, they are all designed and built to be slow unfortunately. Main goal of this systems is to be new face of the city nothing else. French do not have experience in other type of tramway systems. Just building them this way as they do ans using non manuverable rigid bogie citadis trams with very limited dynamic capabilities on curves and switches etc.
Such comments does not make sense.

The networks in France are recents, they do not have very tight curves (except in the center of Grenoble).

They provide a very good service and all are very popular but the line built in Toulouse that is much too slow.
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Old August 9th, 2016, 11:53 PM   #1366
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Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
French tramway systems have this huge problem, they are all designed and built to be slow unfortunately. Main goal of this systems is to be new face of the city nothing else. French do not have experience in other type of tramway systems. Just building them this way as they do ans using non manuverable rigid bogie citadis trams with very limited dynamic capabilities on curves and switches etc.
Isn't that a problem with all low floor trams?
I know for a fact that maintenance is always higher for LFT compared to PCC or other "regular" trams...
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Old August 10th, 2016, 12:21 AM   #1367
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Low-floor trams can have pivoting bogies as well, e.g. the Škoda 15T or the CAF Urbos that was made for Tallinn.
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Old August 10th, 2016, 12:45 AM   #1368
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Low-floor trams can have pivoting bogies as well, e.g. the Škoda 15T or the CAF Urbos that was made for Tallinn.
But because these are more sophisticated they cost more to build and purchase. The low floor trams with fixed bogies are a lower cost solution for new systems where the track is specially built for them. They're no good for traditional systems like Prague for example where the trams work very hard over more difficult infrastructure.

The problem will come for new systems in years ahead when the infrastructure wears out and maybe there won't be enough money to restore everything to perfect condition - then they will be buying Skodas.
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Old August 10th, 2016, 02:23 AM   #1369
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How does the track have to be specially built? If its just a question of alignment and curve profiles, then it would probably be cheaper to continue with the prior configuration when doing track replacement.
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Old August 10th, 2016, 12:18 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by VincentB_ View Post
Such comments does not make sense.

The networks in France are recents, they do not have very tight curves (except in the center of Grenoble).

They provide a very good service and all are very popular but the line built in Toulouse that is much too slow.

Networks in France have curves between 20-25 meters. Citadis trams are designes for 25 meter curves minimum. Cornering for them is very slow and noisy (I visited 8 networks in France). You can hear the same from the driver in Brest.

They do not provide very good service while they are slow, (too many slow downs on any single simple curvature of the line or on switches.

People use it because that is the only thing that runs there, no alternative and in fact French normally know in their cities only citadis trams.

Maintenance costs for Citadis trams is very high, track wear is very high (Strasbourg changed tracks in center on joints and switches already two times), Mulhouse changed the tracks in center already after only 7 years of operation.

French made infrastructure for trams is also very costly and non reparable easily, you must dig up all the concrete to take the rails out so in fact you must destroy all the concrete ballast it has. There are much better solutions with German Strailastic and Netherlands Edilon Sedra track laying system.

Single wire catenary system is also obsolete and built only thinking about aesthetics and nothing else. Technically it is insufficient needs more power substantions and a huge feeder cable alongside the line to provide power all this is done only not to install grid catenary system used in Germany, Poland, Netherlands and in many other countries.

French systems are thought only and mainly from aesthectics, tramway system must be beautiful but in case it is insufficient and bad technically no one is interested. You know it is political decision and nothing else like this NEED in stupid 100% low floor which makes trams very bad technically and infrastructure non friendly.

For example Citadis 301 which Alstom started to produce back in 1999 I guess or 2000 with pivoting bogies and center bogie non pivoting they were the best trams, but as their special bogies were produced in Germany and not in France and French always need to think about themselves as a superior to others they refused to continue producing this models and instead invented Citadis 302 a stupid rigid bogie tram with 25 meter radius and continue to build the same tram without any reasonable technical changes till now.

Only a complete idiot would decide to build in single citiy 3 different profile tramway systems completely non compatible with each other. T3 with 2.65m wide cars (best option) all othe trams lines only compatible for 2.40m wide trams and then completely useless Translohr non compatible to anything.
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Old August 10th, 2016, 04:09 PM   #1371
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NEED in stupid 100% low floor

This is what I remember, that's the only thing right there...

As it is a requirement, all the rest is just extra fluff (rant)

Street patterns are what they are, end of line.
About your other grievants, I hope you will be able to bring those mayors to better ideas (your width issues is a good one, especially in second hand situations (Paris trams to other cities in France making tramways even more widespread))

Could you please give solutions to the points you raised?

Thank you!
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Old August 11th, 2016, 12:44 AM   #1372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
Only a complete idiot would decide to build in single citiy 3 different profile tramway systems completely non compatible with each other. T3 with 2.65m wide cars (best option) all othe trams lines only compatible for 2.40m wide trams and then completely useless Translohr non compatible to anything.
Except if none of them are planned to meet, Paris is not a small city with just a few hundred of thousand or a few million inhabitants. It is a large metropolitan area with 12 million inhabitants. Its main connecting network is the METRO and RER and more and more the suburban trains.
Paris' tram were never intented to form a network and will never be in the way it is in German or Eastern European cities.
Tram are just here to fill some gaps without heavy transport, replace some heavily used buses lines or replace some lightly used railway lines.
Because of that, lines are in all different parts of the city.

In Paris case, it is much more efficient to have a depot for each line than a big central one because until recently none of those lines were close to each other.
Ten years ago when Paris had only two lines, those lines were distant of almost 10 km.

The fact that lines are not compatible is not really an issue because Paris doesn't really need a tram network in the way of German or Eastern European cities.
There are hundreds of metro station just under the center of Paris, not just few one.
It's completly different to any German or Eastern European cities.

With the current Grand Paris Express project and other metro extension, Paris metropolitan area has clearly chosen his path more in favor of the subway.
Paris is like New York, London or Tokyo or Osaka. Notice that those cities share the similar profile as far as tram and LRT planning.
Independant lines on different part of the city rather than a big interconnected network.
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Old August 11th, 2016, 02:33 AM   #1373
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It's always better to be prepared for contingencies. And parts commonalities allow for bulk purposes.

Besides, I've seen plans calling for T1 and T2 to have some common running in the future.

And New York and Osaka might beg to differ with you on not having an interconnected network. Even Tokyo is putting some consideration into a singular network (although nothing has progressed very far).
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Old August 11th, 2016, 08:47 PM   #1374
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Except if none of them are planned to meet, Paris is not a small city with just a few hundred of thousand or a few million inhabitants. It is a large metropolitan area with 12 million inhabitants. Its main connecting network is the METRO and RER and more and more the suburban trains.
Paris' tram were never intented to form a network and will never be in the way it is in German or Eastern European cities.
Tram are just here to fill some gaps without heavy transport, replace some heavily used buses lines or replace some lightly used railway lines.
Because of that, lines are in all different parts of the city.

In Paris case, it is much more efficient to have a depot for each line than a big central one because until recently none of those lines were close to each other.
Ten years ago when Paris had only two lines, those lines were distant of almost 10 km.

The fact that lines are not compatible is not really an issue because Paris doesn't really need a tram network in the way of German or Eastern European cities.
There are hundreds of metro station just under the center of Paris, not just few one.
It's completly different to any German or Eastern European cities.

With the current Grand Paris Express project and other metro extension, Paris metropolitan area has clearly chosen his path more in favor of the subway.
Paris is like New York, London or Tokyo or Osaka. Notice that those cities share the similar profile as far as tram and LRT planning.
Independant lines on different part of the city rather than a big interconnected network.

And again you do not answer a question. all tis what ypu wrote here helps with nothing with decision to build a non compatible network.

And more over why did Paris build translor? I am gonna tell you, just because the NEWNTL could have some work building more vehicles. And ttis is just stupid. The politicans wo make this decision do not think about the city.

And please do not come with the answer oh there was 10% incline and a tram can not take that this is total lie. Trams can take this and more. If Alstom is not able to build such trams it is there problem. Paris could buy trams from another manufacturer.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 12:19 AM   #1375
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If Pittsburgh could routinely run PCCs up 11% slopes on multiple lines fifty years ago, then there is no reason why Paris can't do the same with low-floor cars today.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 12:48 PM   #1376
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If Pittsburgh could routinely run PCCs up 11% slopes on multiple lines fifty years ago, then there is no reason why Paris can't do the same with low-floor cars today.
Bombardier Cityrunner trams with 7 sections in Augsburg run on 11% slopes.

I have spoken with many German tram engineers which all agre that 12% slope for modern multiple section trams is no problem.

Problem here is French manufacturer Alstom with absolutely no experience and no knowledge how to produce good trams, also this manufacturer is not flexible, for example they are not able to adjust their trams for any existing network, they have standard technical design with fixed 25 meter curves and that's it. Only thing they change is the quantity of motors and the trams are able to negotiate 9.1% slopes in Jerusalem (ok with lots of technical flaws and problems in operation).

What Paris should have done is buy trams from another manufacturer but the only reason Translohr lines being built in Paris is the stupid decision not to close NEWNTL production and put ti under Alstom's arms which Alstom did not want but French government made them do that.
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Old August 12th, 2016, 02:18 PM   #1377
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Bombardier Cityrunner trams with 7 sections in Augsburg run on 11% slopes.

I have spoken with many German tram engineers which all agre that 12% slope for modern multiple section trams is no problem.

Problem here is French manufacturer Alstom with absolutely no experience and no knowledge how to produce good trams, also this manufacturer is not flexible, for example they are not able to adjust their trams for any existing network, they have standard technical design with fixed 25 meter curves and that's it. Only thing they change is the quantity of motors and the trams are able to negotiate 9.1% slopes in Jerusalem (ok with lots of technical flaws and problems in operation).

What Paris should have done is buy trams from another manufacturer but the only reason Translohr lines being built in Paris is the stupid decision not to close NEWNTL production and put ti under Alstom's arms which Alstom did not want but French government made them do that.
First you are all for a standard tram ("why not all trams x meters wide") next you say they should not be standard.

Is Alstom such a bad manufacturer? (of trams or in general?)
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Old August 12th, 2016, 03:32 PM   #1378
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First you are all for a standard tram ("why not all trams x meters wide") next you say they should not be standard.

Is Alstom such a bad manufacturer? (of trams or in general?)

Tramway width 2.65m is the best option always of course. This has nothing to do with curve radius.

Alstom does not change anything in their design what could affect on curve radius which is the main problem of their trams. Section length I mean. If you shorten them and add double joint multiple section trams can even take as low as 10,5 meter radius. (Which is bad for rail transport I am just pointing out).

Alstom is not horrible but as I said they have certain key limitations in tramway manufacturing, which forbids them to take part in tenders wit existing networks and in couple of cases they did so and the result was desastrous.
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Old August 13th, 2016, 10:59 AM   #1379
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Alstom does not change anything in their design what could affect on curve radius which is the main problem of their trams. Section length I mean.
Alstom has no problems with their trams. It's only you that has a problem with them. Alstom built more than 1500 Citadis and there is no reason, why they should change anything. Because you want to? Nice.

For existing networks, Alstom had a type called Citadis 200, but now it doesn't fit crash norms anymore:



These trams are in service in Darmstadt, Magdeburg, Gera and Braunschweig.

For the tender of new Warsaw trams, Alstom bid with their type Citadis 304:





So... Please stop going on about Alstom. If Alstom is interested in a tender, they will afford. If not, they don't have to. Easy-peasy.
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Old August 17th, 2016, 07:42 PM   #1380
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Alstom has no problems with their trams. It's only you that has a problem with them. Alstom built more than 1500 Citadis and there is no reason, why they should change anything. Because you want to? Nice.
Alstom trams have no problems?
Because you say so or is there any reason to say that?

Bidding with a tram that does not exist yet, does not mean anything,

Alstom takes no part in tenders for existing networks, and when does always loose.
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