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Old September 14th, 2009, 01:06 AM   #81
WeimieLvr
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Originally Posted by Sportsfan View Post
I think that's why it pays to build a large Convention/Exhibition Centre before you even bid for the olympic games if you don't already have one. That kind of facility can be split into numerous minor indoor arenas for all of the minor sports like Fencing, Judo, Table Tennis, Badminton, Taekwondo and Wrestling.

I can only imagine how much more expensive Sydney 2000 would have been if they didn't already have the facilities at Darling Harbour.

Atlanta used the Georgia World Congress Center (4th largest convention center in the U.S.) for fencing, judo, weighlifting, handball, table tennis, and wrestling.

Previously built venues were used for several events, like boxing, basketball, baseball, gymnastics, volleyball, badminton, shooting, and soccer...the Georgia Dome, the Omni, Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, Stegeman Coliseum, Forbes Arena, Alexander Coliseum, Sanford Stadium, Georgia State University arena, and Morris Brown/Clark Atlanta University stadiums.

A temporary velodrome was set up for cycling. A similar temporary venue was set up for archery in the same area.

The swimming/diving venue was converted to the Georgia Tech Sudent Athletic Center after the Olympics. Olympic Stadium was converted to Turner Field for use by the Atlanta Braves of MLB.

Georgia International Horse Park is still widely used for equestrian events, concerts, etc.

The only "unsuccessful" post-Olympic venues in Atlanta were the tennis complex and the beach volleyball venue. Both have since been reconfigured for other uses.

Conclusion: Atlanta's Olympic venues have been a definite benefit to the city.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 03:46 AM   #82
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Some venues end up sitting virtually empty. Canada has certainly benefitted tremendously from Olympic facilities in Calgary, however. Those facilities became the nexus of a successful national winter sports system that has elevated Canada from an 'also ran' to a winter sports power house.

Canada's stated goal is to finish a top the medal table at the next Olympics in 2010. Such talk would have been inconceivable 15-20 years ago. There's hope that landing a summer Olympics in Toronto will have similar benefits for Canada. There is a serious lack of sports facilities in a province that represents 43% of the national population. An Olympics would correct that infrastructure deficiency.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 11:01 AM   #83
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Some venues end up sitting virtually empty. Canada has certainly benefitted tremendously from Olympic facilities in Calgary, however. Those facilities became the nexus of a successful national winter sports system that has elevated Canada from an 'also ran' to a winter sports power house.

Canada's stated goal is to finish a top the medal table at the next Olympics in 2010. Such talk would have been inconceivable 15-20 years ago. There's hope that landing a summer Olympics in Toronto will have similar benefits for Canada. There is a serious lack of sports facilities in a province that represents 43% of the national population. An Olympics would correct that infrastructure deficiency.

I think that the Olympic venue issue and its burden on the host city is usually more of a Summer Olympics thing. Winter Olympics are usually held in smaller towns rather than larger cities...with a few obvious exceptions such as Calgary, Sarajevo, Salt Lake City, and Oslo - and in 2010 Vancouver.

Summer Olympics cities are often stuck with a huge athletics arena that becomes little-used and a financial burden.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 11:24 AM   #84
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Even in China where Beijing just held the country's first Olympics and needs the facilities, the question of future use has popped up and the National Stadium (Bird's Nest) is likely going to be under-used in the long term. Perhaps the strategy should change whereby the IOC looks at using existing facilities and converting them for the Olympics instead.
In essence I agree, or they could award the games to cities with real potential to use the venues on a regular basis (spectator sport national leagues or conversion to community sports centers). If you build an 80,000 seater in a country where there is not much of a mass sport culture, you will surely face a white elephant problem. I personally think a fantastic solution is to pass the facilities to colleges, because they have a steady supply of sportsmen and do not limit the use to a handful of professional athletes.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 04:17 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by maciej_sl View Post
In essence I agree, or they could award the games to cities with real potential to use the venues on a regular basis (spectator sport national leagues or conversion to community sports centers). If you build an 80,000 seater in a country where there is not much of a mass sport culture, you will surely face a white elephant problem. I personally think a fantastic solution is to pass the facilities to colleges, because they have a steady supply of sportsmen and do not limit the use to a handful of professional athletes.
Yes - re-use is very important, which is why I think the Olympic Park-style development model has got to go. Put these facilities in communities, albeit in close proximity to each other, or fill in all those big spaces after the Games with housing. Make neighbourhoods out of them, and voila!
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Old September 15th, 2009, 01:40 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by WeimieLvr View Post
I think that the Olympic venue issue and its burden on the host city is usually more of a Summer Olympics thing. Winter Olympics are usually held in smaller towns rather than larger cities...with a few obvious exceptions such as Calgary, Sarajevo, Salt Lake City, and Oslo - and in 2010 Vancouver.

Summer Olympics cities are often stuck with a huge athletics arena that becomes little-used and a financial burden.
I'd argue that the burden is rather equal if not more troublesome in winter Olympic host cities. Winter Olympic host cities tend to be smaller so it's more difficult to find uses for lavish facilities with large seating capacities.

You're correct that it really depends on each individual city as the set of circumstances are unique to each. Usually the most problematic is the stadium used for an opening and closing ceremony.

What is Albertville going to do with a stadium that holds more people than live in the town? What is a potential city like Toronto going to do with a 80,000 seat stadium with an athletics track? Toronto can't even fill the stadium it has now and it only seats 53,000.

Athletics tracks? There may be events scheduled there, but they would only need 5,000 - 10,000 seats. If Toronto landed a major event, it might sell out, but that would be one major athletics event in perhaps its entire life after an Olympics. A similar situation exists in almost every summer Olympics athletics stadium. Only in Europe do athletics stadiums get used more often for athletics.

In north America they will not get used. The only solution is to lower the field, get rid of the track, and build more seats down to the new field. This has been done in a number of instances.
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Old September 15th, 2009, 02:38 AM   #87
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I'd argue that the burden is rather equal if not more troublesome in winter Olympic host cities. Winter Olympic host cities tend to be smaller so it's more difficult to find uses for lavish facilities with large seating capacities.

You're correct that it really depends on each individual city as the set of circumstances are unique to each. Usually the most problematic is the stadium used for an opening and closing ceremony.

What is Albertville going to do with a stadium that holds more people than live in the town? What is a potential city like Toronto going to do with a 80,000 seat stadium with an athletics track? Toronto can't even fill the stadium it has now and it only seats 53,000.

Athletics tracks? There may be events scheduled there, but they would only need 5,000 - 10,000 seats. If Toronto landed a major event, it might sell out, but that would be one major athletics event in perhaps its entire life after an Olympics. A similar situation exists in almost every summer Olympics athletics stadium. Only in Europe do athletics stadiums get used more often for athletics.

In north America they will not get used. The only solution is to lower the field, get rid of the track, and build more seats down to the new field. This has been done in a number of instances.

That's why Atlanta built Olympic Stadium so that it could easily be converted to a baseball stadium and be well-used for many years to come. The stadium received a good bit of unwarranted criticism, but it was really a very intelligent move.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 06:43 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Some venues end up sitting virtually empty. Canada has certainly benefitted tremendously from Olympic facilities in Calgary, however. Those facilities became the nexus of a successful national winter sports system that has elevated Canada from an 'also ran' to a winter sports power house.

Canada's stated goal is to finish a top the medal table at the next Olympics in 2010. Such talk would have been inconceivable 15-20 years ago. There's hope that landing a summer Olympics in Toronto will have similar benefits for Canada. There is a serious lack of sports facilities in a province that represents 43% of the national population. An Olympics would correct that infrastructure deficiency.

"OFF ALL THE COUNTRIES CANADA HAS LITL RIGHT SPEAK OF BURDEN/ECONOMICS CONSIDERING THEIR IMPECCABLE TRACK RECORD"
i. Montreal 76 - Big Embarassment for teh Olympic Movement incomplete venues and Debt for decades to come.
ii. Vancouver 94 CWG - Tempoarary Venues even lesser std than Indian/Chinese National Games Main Stadiums
I dont know much about the Winter Games but time will tell Canda's tryst with tragedy after 2010.
http://english.shandongbusiness.gov..../pic/pic30.jpg
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Old September 16th, 2009, 04:48 PM   #89
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Wrong! If anything, Canadians have experience with both benefit and burden when it comes to Olympic venues, wouldn't you say? I'd rather listen to people who have some experience with both than someone with experience with neither.

Your logic is completely backwards!

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Old October 2nd, 2009, 10:37 AM   #90
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I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 12:51 PM   #91
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I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?
Athens Olympic complex is a state owned sport facility. The main stadium is closed at all times and no visitors are allowed, probably because it is rented by two football teams and thus for security reasons it is guarded, especially during the heavy schedule, during the superleague matches. The same goes for OAKA indoor hall. The swimming facilities are open for public use, for a fee, unless there are swimming events that day, the time schedule is on the website, http://www.oaka.com.gr/default.asp
The Olympic Tennis stadium is open for public use, reservation of a court is also possible, the time schedule is also on the website.

You can reach Olympic Sport complex from anywhere in the city using only one, 1 euro ticket valid or 1.5 hours for all public transport and there is no entrance fee to enter the facility.

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Old October 3rd, 2009, 04:36 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by maciej_sl View Post
I read somewhere that the Olympic Stadium in Beijing has become the second or third most popular venue in the city with tourists. I would imagine that some people are making it a point to come and see it then, which benefits the city financially. So if you build an aesthetically pleasing venue, I suppose it can sustain itself as a major tourist attraction till they find other uses for it...if they find such uses in the end. I wonder if tourists in Athens or Sydney or Atlanta ever wander the Olympic Stadiums?
The stadium in Sydney is still an attraction. The area (Olympic Park) is actually becoming another suburb, with apartment towers, hotels, shops etc. it's not just some dead area.
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Old October 3rd, 2009, 05:40 PM   #93
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^

It would be cheaper to bulldoze the stadium than to pay the upkeep. But due to the political fallout they keep the Olympic stadium going.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 07:26 AM   #94
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here, Time Magazine did an interesting photostory about Olympic Stadiums.

http://www.time.com/time/photogaller...927333,00.html
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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:19 PM   #95
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This one is really stupid. I mean, sure it looks great in mid-july. But how about the rest of the year?

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Old October 5th, 2009, 01:43 PM   #96
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for me its both a benefit and a burden!
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Old October 6th, 2009, 12:37 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by maciej_sl View Post
here, Time Magazine did an interesting photostory about Olympic Stadiums.

http://www.time.com/time/photogaller...927333,00.html
Not all that great of an article...and Seoul....WTF?..The picture is the Seoul World Cup Stadium which was built for the 2002 WC...It certainly wasnt around in 1988.
As for Sydney,there is no doubt the Sydney Olympic Stadium has been a major benefit for the city.Previously the biggest stadium in Sydney was just 45,000 and at 83,000,it hosts over 50 events per year and sells out around 7-10(incl concerts)...A great asset.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 01:19 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by maciej_sl View Post
here, Time Magazine did an interesting photostory about Olympic Stadiums.

http://www.time.com/time/photogaller...927333,00.html
"now host to various soccer games."

Hertha Berlin is now "various soccer games"?
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Old October 8th, 2009, 01:45 AM   #99
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Some of my views.

1. Olympic Stadium:
Athletics rarely attracts crowds beyond 20-25,000. Ensure that the venue can reduce its capacity post Olympic Games or ensure that it can be reconfigured suitably to host other sports in demand in the host city. An anchor tenant and venue operator would be ensure a stream of events post Olympic Games and greater potential for revenues. Ideally events at the stadium are not used as revenue generator to offset debts related to construction costs.

Consider a flexible venue e.g. Stade de France, only where the benefit from additional athletic events exceeds the cost of the "movable stands" solution. Other considerations would be the impact on the field of play when the venue moves between athletics and football mode.

Where the venue exists, consider temporary expansions to the required 60,000 seat IOC required capacity.

2. Aquatic Centre
Design venue to ensure that the capacity can be reduced to 2-5,000 in Legacy Mode. Design the roof structure and other structures to accommodate both Games mode and Legacy mode without any major addition costs or design revisions.

The addition of leisure facilties after the Games can contribute to generating revenues. An additional training pool would be able to accommodate leisure aspects while ensuring the competition pool is available for events/elite training as/when required.

3. Indoor Arenas

Maximize the use of existing indoor venues. Where additional venues are required consider temporary venues, only where the cost is lower than the legacy benefit.
The construction of a generic indoor space/venue e.g. a Convention Centre or Exhibition Halls, rather than sports specific venues e.g. weightlifting venue, can benefit the host city both before and After the Games.

Creativity is the key e.g. temporarily covering a football venue/regenerating old warehouses/clustering temporary arenas e.g. Paris 2012

4. Hockey
Use an existing venue, or an existing small-medium sizes football venue.
Where a legacy need exists, construct a permanent venue with limited seating capacity, and extensive athlete amenities and spaces. Consideration could be given to sharing the facility with football, with the second training hockey field for exclusive hockey use.

Where an entirely temporary venue is considered, the cost should be considered.

5. Archery
Construct a temporary venue or use existing venues e.g. cricket stadia, small-medium football stadia/sports field with good proximity to the Athletes accommodation.

6. Sailing
Use and upgrade the facilities of an existing sailing club to ensure post Games legacy. Alternatively, consider the best sailing site outside the host city with experience in hosting national and international sailing events e.g. Valencia. The use of an existing harbour should also be considered.

Where an existing venue is used, the use of temporary structures should be maximized where appropriate with limited permanent seating capacity.

7. Beach Volleyball
Usually ideal to construct a temporary arena at an existing beach or at an iconic host city location.

8. Velodrome
Use an existing velodrome, which may be temporarily covered for the Games.
Where an existing venue is in place, or a new venues is planned, consider options to ensure a multi-purpose sports and events centre e.g. Melbourne Multi-Purpose Venue.

Maximize the use of temporary seating.

9. BMX
Consider a small-medium sized football/athletics venue with existing athlete/media facilities in place. Alternatively construct an entirely temporary venue, possibly near the Cycling(Track) venue, if possible cost reductions exist.

10. Equestrian

Maximize the use of temporary structure or existing park areas.
The use of an existing grand stand and race course track at a racecourse could provide both a legacy and cost reductions. In addition, this would reduce travel times for athletes. Creative options do exist e.g. Greenwich Park, Golf Clubs etc.

11. Modern Penthatlon


Where the following venues are in close proximity, do not construction additional venues unless a legacy need exists.
- 1 Small-Medium Indoor Arena (Shooting/Fencing)
- 1 Olympic sized Pool (Swimming)
- 1 Small-Medium sized football/athletics stadium (Equestrian/Cross Country)

e.g. Using an indoor arena, aquatic centre and nearby stadium at the Olympic Park. Alternatively University sports facilities usually incorporate all of the above and would therefore offer cost reductions. Temporary seating should be used where necessary.

12. Rowing

A costly and potential white elephant.
Careful planning should be given to this venue, especially given the experience of Sydney, Athens and Beijing.

As this venue is permanent, consider
- incorporating other leisure activities at the water body
- incorporating the venue into the olympic park or future residential area to maximize its use/value
- mainly temporary seating
- bringing the venue closer to the village to minimize the long travel times, which has become the norm
- use an existing water body where possible e.g. Lake Michigan, Manzanares, Rio's Lagoa


13. Slalom/Whitewater

Considering the construction of a temporary venue OR use an existing river course where suitable.
Integrating this venue with the rowing venue could reduce costs and improve the future use of the venue. As above, minimize permanent seating, maximize temporary seating.

14. Tennis

Use an existing venue with temporary seats around certain courts to meet the required seating capacity. Where a legacy need exists construct a venue with permanent seats with a suitable capacity. Ensure the future use of the venue by attracting one annual WTA and ATP event.

An existing tennis club would benefit from improved facilities while the use of temporary seating would lower the maintenance burden post Games

15. Shooting
The location of this venue is likely to be subject to environmental considerations/approvals.
Construct an entirely temporary venue or provide minimal facilities where legacy need exists.
The various shooting halls can be reconfigure post Games as community halls/spaces.

Last edited by Mo Rush; October 8th, 2009 at 01:59 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2009, 02:03 AM   #100
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According to your list, best Olympic venue use is Athens 2004
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