Bengaluru International Airport (BIAL) Discussions

[Devesh]

It is amazing how quickly we accept from BIAL, what we curse HAL for. An airport has to meet demand. Mr. Brunner, admits to capacity being full during peak hours. Now he wants traffic spread to other hours. That was the very situation at HAL.

I has raised this very point in my article "Flying at a time of BIAL convenience, not yours" http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/20...ience-not.html.

It is hard to accept spending so many resources, just to replace one airport, with another, with similar peak hour limitations.

http://www.livemint.com/2008/07/0721...in-5-year.html

Bial will break even in 5 years if allowed to charge user fee
There is nothing called annual capacity. Peak-hour capacity (is what matters).
Venkatesha Babu
Bangalore: Seventeen years after it was conceived, the Bengaluru International Airport became operational on the night of 24-25 May after several delays. From the day of its launch, the airport has been in the news mainly for the wrong reasons, from complaints over poor connectivity to inadequate toilet facilities. This, however, doesn’t seem to faze Albert Brunner, the soft-spoken chief executive officer of airport operator Bangalore International Airport Ltd (Bial), who has been leading the project since 2002. In an interview with Mint, Brunner responds to the criticism and controversy surrounding Bial. Edited excerpts:
Can you give us an overview of where things stand today?
We opened on the 24th of May. Whereas the first flight was perfectly fine, the first day was a disaster. We had teething problems in two areas, operation-related and infrastructure-related.
People waited for 20 minutes for the staircase to attach to the aircraft. I would be fuming if it had happened to me. They had to wait for 40 minutes for baggage, another reason to get angry. Then you had to wait for one hour to get a taxi. The reason (was that) the service provider did not get the licence for taxis. When we opened we had 89 taxis, now we have 800 taxis.
You see, the cumulation of all these things gave us a bad name. I do not want to look for excuses, we have to solve it, but most of it was not under our control. Still, we were the one to take responsibility. Infrastructure-wise, we don’t have enough toilets, we had underestimated—the layouts were bad. We have now increased the number of toilets, added area wise 45%.
When people had to get out, we needed staircases and bridge or bags to be brought out, it was the responsiblity of the ground handler who is the service provider. Unfortunately, many of the airlines wanted to do the ground handling themselves. And for a long period, they had not signed the contract with the ground handlers. At a very late stage, they said to the ground handlers: “you do it”. But neither they had trained personnel nor equipment.
Why bad blood between you and Kingfisher Airlines?
Kingfisher has always said that they want to make Bangalore their operational base. And (Kingfisher owner Vijay) Mallya has requested for additional facilities. When they complained about the problems in the first two days, they complained in a very professional way, whatever they said was very justified. And we really solved it in a professional way. In view of this, I can’t understand the bad remarks from Mallya about us. Because he has the least reasons to speak like that. He asked for a lounge, we have given him that, he has a Kingfisher bar there. Whatever he requested, we have given him. He wanted space for office, we have given it. But they are yet to begin work on it. I personally do not understand why he made such remarks.
We have offered him whatever he wanted—office space, MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul facility). The first time he came to the airport, he may have expected a much bigger airport, which is grand. But we have always said we do not want to build a status symbol, we want a functional airport; whenever the need arises, we can increase the size. Maybe he was disappointed...
Comparison with GMR Hyderabad International Airport Ltd, which built a bigger facility relatively more smoothly?
We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.
Hyderabad, which was two or three years behind us, were carefully watching. They even copied our concession agreement and it is not a joke.
It is said within a year Bial will get full in terms of handling capacity...
(Interrupts)... It makes me angry. Even the ministry speaks about annual capacity. There is nothing called annual capacity. Peak-hour capacity (is what matters). We don’t have peak hour for 24 hours.
If airlines want to operate, when the slots are full between 6 and 8, we ask them to come the next hour and we have space. You spread the peaks over the day, if you could do that over 24 hours, then our capacity would be 24 million.
What are the indications on the past one month in terms of traffic?
Presently, we get a feeling that there is a slowdown. It may be a seasonal slowdown, it is a slow season now. But we should see how it grows. Let us assume that we have an increase of 15%, then next year we may have around 11.5-12 million, this we can handle, another 10% we can handle, then it will be a bit tight.
But for two-three years down the line, infrastructure building has to start now. Right ?
We started our planning process around nine months ago. We know, we need the second runway by 2012-13, if we continue to grow as we grow now. We need a second terminal at the same time, four years from now. Next week we’ll go to the board and give the preliminary information and three months from now, we’ll give a concrete proposal.
Is the additional investment linked to valuation and divestment of stake as there has been talk of Bial being valued at $2.5 billion (Rs10,775 crore) or more?
Fact is that we do not have revenues from domestic passengers. User development fee (UDF) is the backbone of our revenue and 80% of traffic is domestic and we don’t have revenue (from domestic traffic) for the first three months. Therefore, there is a certain reluctance (on the part of our investors for additional investment).
None of them have, however, said I am not interested in infusing additional money. None of them have ever said we (have to) go public for funding. I give you my word it has never been discussed. It could be a solution because it is cheaper than borrowing from banks but (it is only one of the solutions being considered).
What is the investment for an intermediate terminal?
We are thinking whether we need to build a functional terminal or a slightly bigger shell that can accommodate more people. It is being considered. Building should be below Rs100 crore and the apron expansion should be more... that would mean an investment of another Rs200-300 crore at least.
There is apprehension that the project is goldplated and you have not opened the books completely.
We are completely transparent. There are two representatives of Karnataka and government of India and the books are open to them.
Feeling among investors?
Initially we projected break-even in seven-and-a-half years. However, since then we had to make more investment but we also have more passengers. If we could charge the UDF, we will break even in five years. As I told you before, we need to invest further. Really, it is the (capital) appreciation of the airport, not the revenue, that makes (this project) more interesting for the investor.
Airlines are bleeding. Your outlook? Seen any cancellation of short-haul flights ?
Airlines are our customers. They are in a tight position, GoAir and Paramount have suspended one flight each. We have no indication of a slowdown for the winter schedule. In September, we will get a clear indication.
Arguments in favour of keeping the short-haul flights from the old airport and indemnifying Bial for those losses. Comments.
I feel sorry that they still come up with those arguments. You can indemnify our loss but in the long run, it is the loss of the city. The city will lose out having a strong airport and an opportunity to attract lot of international airlines and make it stronger. Airlines are already losing money. They will also lose money by (spending on) additional resources in two airports.
K. Raghu contributed to this interview.

[yshak]

Jeeezz. Can you atleast change the title of your thread. The appropriate title for this thread should be "BIAL vs HAL"

There was a reason why the previous BIAL thread was closed and if you want to start a new thread for your propoganda purposes atleast come up with an original name. "Bengaluru International Airport (BIAL) Part 2 " ? C'mon

[raghussc]

I believe the right place for HAL opening posts is another post titled appropriately or in chaibar Please keep this thread exclusively for developments related to BIAL and do not discuss HAL here. Thanks !!!

[Raichen]

Devesh,

The original BIAL thread was shut down because the discussion was getting digressed from actual BIAL development news. I am not sure why you decided to start a new sequel thread by calling it a "Part 2" and started off
with ur usual BIAL thrashing.

Since you have already started the new thread now, can you atleast limit the use to only BIAL development discussions and not for your constant anti-BIAL posts. If you want to use this thread for "anti-BIAL & open-HAL" purposes, then please rename the thread appropriately

[cncity]

Do we need multiple BIAL threads in the same section?

[dakshinapraja]

Originally Posted by raghussc

I believe the right place for HAL opening posts is another post titled appropriately or in chaibar Please keep this thread exclusively for developments related to BIAL and do not discuss HAL here. Thanks !!!

I second that! Please let us keep this thread to report only BIAL development news. We could merge the picture thread of BIA back in here and move any discussion on HAL opening/BIAL bashing/name calling to the Chaibar section with an appropriate title.

[ramkan]

Some of us have been involved in creating these threads at the begining of the project more than 3 years ago. We have been following every development since then and carefully updating for such a long period of time. Sad to see the thread turned into anti-BIAL discussion/opinion thread.

Can you keep your expert opinions to chaibar thread, and not mix with development news for which this thread is intended for?

[mpvp]

Good to see the forum continued here, Devesh.

[mpvp]

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now. What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?

The issue is development of Bangalore airports in which BIAL is one and HAL is the other. Just because of an invalid contract , BIAL forced HAL shutdown doesnot mean it is going to remain as such forever. Hence it is very pertinent to discuss development issues related to both BIAL and HAL in this forum.If you cannot grasp what it means, check out what Houston airport system in the city of Houston is.

[mpvp]

Oopps....previous mail from mine was reply to ragussc.

[werfish]

Originally Posted by mpvp

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now. What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?

The issue is development of Bangalore airports in which BIAL is one and HAL is the other. Just because of an invalid contract , BIAL forced HAL shutdown doesnot mean it is going to remain as such forever. Hence it is very pertinent to discuss development issues related to both BIAL and HAL in this forum.If you cannot grasp what it means, check out what Houston airport system in the city of Houston is.

Sir,The HAL airport is closed for good now.Let it remain closed.You just didnt wake up in March and realise that HAL was shutting down was it?.If you are really desperate to only fly out of HAL,suggest you join the IAF.

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by mpvp

BIAL is inaugarated and there is absolutely no development happening in BIAL now.

Blind man think no light in universe

What do you expect us to discuss on BIAL development now?

"us" = thus far just aout 3 people on this forum ?. Previous thread was a joy to many people discussing developments happenning and to happen, but was hijacked for different purpose. Obviously overwhelming majority view had and has no value to some.

Just because of an invalid contract

Oh the law expert who has superceded the courts of our land !(who have already have affirmed the validity of the contract) .

BIAL forced HAL shutdown

How did that happen, we had an elected government - Oh myGod, BIAL runs our government?!!. Hang on!, forced to shut down againt the wishes of whom?- oh i see now, against the wishes of an elitist minority and slothful 'public sector employees' (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-n...-Study/332891/).

doesnot mean it is going to remain as such forever.

I encourage you to dream on if that makes you happy.

Check out what Houston airport system in the city of Houston is.

What is Houston airport system?.

[2Paise]

Originally Posted by Devesh

I has raised this very point in my article "Flying at a time of BIAL convenience, not yours" http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/20...ience-not.html.

Thats some vital information...shouldn't we be discussing this?

[Devesh]

For all of you who did not bother to READ, but rather saw what you wanted, I re-post my original comment

It is amazing how quickly we accept from BIAL, what we curse HAL for. An airport has to meet demand. Mr. Brunner, admits to capacity being full during peak hours. Now he wants traffic spread to other hours. That was the very situation at HAL.

I has raised this very point in my article "Flying at a time of BIAL convenience, not yours" http://aviation.deveshagarwal.com/20...ience-not.html.

It is hard to accept spending so many resources, just to replace one airport, with another, with similar peak hour limitations.

So before taking off on some tangent, I suggest you "nay-sayers" take the time to read my article, and then put forth an explanation, why are we spending so much resource for an airport with similar constraints ? and more importantly, how do you propose to get BIAL to meet our needs.

I do not believe that SSC is only here to glorify BIAL regardless. Are we not entitled to question the squander of our resources ?

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

[mailabode]

We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.

2Paise, your post contained the above - please could you mention who said that and also give the source for that. Thx.

[2Paise]

Originally Posted by mailabode

2Paise, your post contained the above - please could you mention who said that and also give the source for that. Thx.

First post of this thread

[kbsyed61]

Originally Posted by Devesh

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

Devesh,
It is said, when we point our one finger towards others, there are 3 fingers pointing towards you.

The questions to ask is,
1. What is AAI doing in BIAL? What is its role so far in BIAL? Does it has any guts to refute BIAL on its goofs (if any?) I don't know about others, but I know their (AAI) salaries and perks to attend BIAL board meetings are met by my contribution to the government. Leave alone transparency, they do not even bother to answer the questions citizens put through RTI. We are given a 2 line answers. Did we ever dare asking these question to AAI babu (we claim good rapport with them on our claim of expertise). Friendship is not just asking good info, it is more about asking the difficult questions that others may not ask. Forcing them to see their follies and correct the course

2. Isn't it time to ask questions to GOK for its role in BIAL, its failure to deliver the promised connectivity and their participation for a decent airport facility? Why are we so afraid of government and its babus? Is the fear of business loss and difficulties if not in good books? and yet we claim we care for Bangalore?

We dare and love to shoot private stake holders of BIAL with all the guns and ammunitions, but we just chicken out when its time for holding GOK and GOI responsible for their role in failing the citizens of Bangalore.

Devesh, unless you and me get the GOK and GOI to task, we are at the mercy of Mr. Brunner and his team. We can keep on doling all the metrics and data to prove how sub-standard is BIAL? We can keep filing on filing PIL for " Open HAL" and petition Election commission to dent BIAL to the possible extent. Even if the BIAL is just like HAL in all aspects, the sins of public participation can not be forgiven. If we do not want to take on these public representatives' lets not rant about being responsible citizen, we care for B'lore etc. Lets set our house in order before we venture onto others.

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by 2Paise

First post of this thread

Thanks for making it easier! .
Have seen many many quotes of entire articles from Devesh, Genial Giant etc and mostly they were stressing the same thing and so recently dont read too much of that, and so i happenned overlook the first before i asked you (first post it may be, but by definition/name of the thread it is a continuation of the previous thread, right?).
I think its time i took a leaf out of the strategy book of relentless BIAL bashers and for a change blame my oversight on their often monotonous one track posts, at least this once!! . Just joking(not really ridiculing anybody there).

[mailabode]

May of you may not care how your tax Rupees are spent, but I sure do.

Mr Devesh, do you think the money went to Cayman Islands, Bahamas, Monaco, Switzerland or something like that ?- would be interesting to know.

If the money did not go to the investors's secret accounts, then where else?. Corruption- right?.

I dont think you have in your entire life never given money as corruption to get something done. And did you love giving it?- i suppose not. Its a common widespread phenomenon that touches every nook and corner and person of our country- right??. So if you should be fair to BIAL you should fight this as a systemic problem - right. Then why make only a hue and cry when BIAL was forced into a similar situation?. (treating a problem for what it is is the right spirit- treating a systemic problem as an isolated problem does not make sense).

Then what about the delays from the Govt?- how much loss do you reckon that caused to BIAL over 7 plus years?.

I think to be fair you must take into account all factors - if you do not, then its simply just a name sake argument, an eyewash which will never give a fair result. You still can discuss all those factors- whats stopping you from discussing the thus far hush hush matters?- you are a powerful person in Bangalore(by ur position in the BCIC)- why dont you take the lead in investigating where the money went and keep us updated every day on this blog and also ask others over here for their ideas and input?- that will prove by action that you do care about people's' collective tax money- do take the lead.

I end by saying that since you complain continually about our money being wasted - you must take the lead in finding out where the money went, sincerely exploring ALL avenues. If the money went to the pockets of the investors themselves, that can be traced to bank accounts. But if the money went not to the investors but to a handful of corrupt politicians then you must endeavour to find that out- question is will you be willing to persue the politicians?. Its not very difficult to find out that money cannot be accounted for- but thats not enough- IF YOU WANT TO START, THEN YOU MUST FINISH the process by finding the recepients. (i dont see any other way money could have disappeared- if there is, then pls do tell all of us). The core of the problem you cite here is corruption in my opinion- if you refuse to discuss this wrt to BIA in detail then logically it would appear that your complaints are not a really serious and completely honest exercise- its would appear to be simply beating around the bush. However if you wish to take up the issue in detail- then i am sure you would get commendations from everybody.

My guess? - you will not do this fruitful exercise which answers your question because it would get highly inconvenient for you - and yet you will continue superficial and unimpartial BIAL bashing unmindful the core reasons.

[Devesh]

Originally Posted by kbsyed61

Devesh,
It is said, when we point our one finger towards others, there are 3 fingers pointing towards you.

The questions to ask is,
1. What is AAI doing in BIAL? What is its role so far in BIAL? Does it has any guts to refute BIAL on its goofs (if any?) I don't know about others, but I know their (AAI) salaries and perks to attend BIAL board meetings are met by my contribution to the government. Leave alone transparency, they do not even bother to answer the questions citizens put through RTI. We are given a 2 line answers. Did we ever dare asking these question to AAI babu (we claim good rapport with them on our claim of expertise). Friendship is not just asking good info, it is more about asking the difficult questions that others may not ask. Forcing them to see their follies and correct the course

2. Isn't it time to ask questions to GOK for its role in BIAL, its failure to deliver the promised connectivity and their participation for a decent airport facility? Why are we so afraid of government and its babus? Is the fear of business loss and difficulties if not in good books? and yet we claim we care for Bangalore?

We dare and love to shoot private stake holders of BIAL with all the guns and ammunitions, but we just chicken out when its time for holding GOK and GOI responsible for their role in failing the citizens of Bangalore.

Devesh, unless you and me get the GOK and GOI to task, we are at the mercy of Mr. Brunner and his team. We can keep on doling all the metrics and data to prove how sub-standard is BIAL? We can keep filing on filing PIL for " Open HAL" and petition Election commission to dent BIAL to the possible extent. Even if the BIAL is just like HAL in all aspects, the sins of public participation can not be forgiven. If we do not want to take on these public representatives' lets not rant about being responsible citizen, we care for B'lore etc. Lets set our house in order before we venture onto others.

Well said Syed.

In this convuluted scenario, AAI is like Trimurthi. One face is, AAI the regulator. Another face is, AAI the service provider/vendor of CNS-ATM to BIAL, third face is, AAI the investor, in BIAL.

What face should we question. And question, we should. Has anyone on SSC filed an RTI demanding a copy of the AAI assessment report of BIAL ?

We should also realise that BIAL is a P-P-P. We are 1 of those P's. It is OUR land and resources that are being diverted, and in this partnership, it is WE who must be vigilant of OUR rights.

I am pointing all 20 digits at BIAL, GoI, and GoK included. The GoK has an airport committee headed by no less than the Chief Secretary. I have requested the Chamber to request participation, so that views of us users can also be incorporated. If the "babus" resist, I am sure an RTI for the minutes of those meetings will get us good insight.

I am not sure, how many SSC members are aware of this. BIAL demanded 25% of the Vayu Vajra ticket fares from BMTC as a "permission fee" to let them use the airport. BMTC management said, "okay, but we will print on the ticket that 25% of this fare is being given to BIAL". Promptly the demand was dropped, and along with it all cooperation. Today, BMTC has to send water from town every morning to provide for its staff at the airport. It also has to send sweepers, since BIAL cleans the rest of the parking lot, except the BMTC bus stands. Even today. BMTC is not allowed to distribute pamphlets at the central information kiosk about the VV service. What is the limit of commercialism and profit ?

The GoK has spent over Rs. 1500 Cr on connectivity till date, and will probably spend another Rs. 5000 Cr. 6,500 Cr., for a Rs. 2,500 Cr., airport. I am not denying the need one bit, but given the fact that these are precious resources that are being diverted away from other equally needed infrastructure projects, do you not feel that it is incumbent on us to raise the question -- "Are we getting good value for our money" ? Should we not be asking this question from ALL the stakeholders at BIAL.

See this quote in the interview

We wanted construction of the airport (to take off) in 2002. We could begin construction around mid-2005, the time we wanted to open the airport! During the same time we had unprecedented gowth in aviation, because we had a proactive civil aviation minister who opened the skies. They allowed new airlines.
Our promoters were disappointed with the slow progress... It would have been impossible for us to go to the board to tell them that we will be building a bigger airport and we need to redesign. Nobody would invest one additional rupee for that—they never knew whether we would succeed or not. I made a new traffic study and went to the board for additional money. We had two choices—either we stop and redesign, which will result in further delay or begin construction and during construction, try as much as possible to expand the airport without delaying the opening. We increased the scope of our contractors by 70% without delaying the opening date. We went from Rs1,412 crore to Rs1,930 crore and finally we had to increase (the cost) to Rs2,470 crore because of delays.

BIAL management on the ground knows the realities, but their promoters have forced BIAL, to force on to Bangalore an airport below capacity. Should this not concern to all of us Bangaloreans on the attitude and power of the investors ? Mind you, these investors have brought in only about Rs. 350 Cr. The rest is MONEY FROM INDIA, either in the form of loans or grants. My pride in India, refuses to let me believe, we are so bankrupt, that we should sell our soul for two bits of silver.

Another part

Fact is that we do not have revenues from domestic passengers. User development fee (UDF) is the backbone of our revenue and 80% of traffic is domestic and we don’t have revenue (from domestic traffic) for the first three months. Therefore, there is a certain reluctance (on the part of our investors for additional investment)

This nation, and all us, have given 4000+ acres to BIAL to compensate them. Does this signal the BIAL investors (primarily Siemens) are planning to "earn-back" the airport within 5 years on our UDF, and then rake in obscene profits on the real-estate ? Admittedly, our administration and politicians have signed a very lop-sided agreement, but globally today, corporations practice Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) for a reason.

There are other issues in the interview that raises my eyebrows :

1. Why is the break-even period reduced from 7.5 years to 5 years ?
2. What is the typical break-even period for an infrastructure project of 30 years ?

I am a right winger, and strongly believe in market forces, but not abuse to this degree.

PIL, is just one armament in our arsenal, the other is RTI, and the third one, which the past governments have learnt, is the ballot.

But ultimately, the strongest weapon, is the harsh glare of inspection raised by grass-roots awareness, that hurts the most, and that is my goal.

If SSC members start questioning ALL the stakeholders at BIAL, which includes GoI and GoK, may be some of these outrageous mistakes will get corrected.

As the ad says ...... "Jaago Grahak Jaago".