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Old February 26th, 2010, 06:13 AM   #2261
aranjan
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First off clearly the AAI has improved the quality of their new airports undoubtedly, but why is this? Much of it is because they now feel threatened by private companies taking over other airports and they want to show they can create an equal product. However while the architecture is more modern and the airports look nicer, basic amenities are hard to come by. There is very little if any retail, very few food and beverage outlets. When people go to an airport they want to have something to do and be as relaxed as possible. If you look at reviews of any AAI airport the main complaints are regarding lack of stores, and food and beverage outlets. With the new airports, including BIAL, people have praised them because they offer many stores, duty free, several food and beverage outlets, phone chargers, WIFI, and areas to charge laptops and I should add more efficient and much better looking seats.

BIAL has one major issue that we all know and that is size, and its architecture, which is clearly nothing spectacular. Now lets stop this argument as to who is to blame, it is simple everyone is to blame, meaning the government, which has overseen the construction and approved everything and the companies and organizations that make up BIAL, which of course includes the AAI. In the reviews for Bangalore Airport, many complain about the size of the airport, which is significantly smaller than HIAL, which handles roughly the same amount of PPA. They also complain a great deal of the immigration which is handled by AAI. Every foreigner which includes me that I have talked to has said the immigration and security is highly inefficient and time wasting, and I certainly concur. According to GMR HIAL is .5 times larger than Bangalore's airport.

I know this post may not seem clear, but here are my points; 1) BIAL is still better than any AAI airport hands down because of what it offers. 2) Both the government and BIAL deserve equal blame for the deficiencies with the terminal. 3) Despite the deficiencies in size and design, BIAL has received great praise from people worldwide for being clean, having plenty of shops, eateries, etc. You can take a look at skytrax and I have talked to several people who have been through it.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 06:32 AM   #2262
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And you seem to care only enough to say 'go file a complaint' as if that will solve all issues.
Well it seems you care more than me so go ahead what is your proposal, a "hartal" at SC forum. Filing a complaint or a class action law suit is the only option. Nowadays judges pay attention to ordinary citizen's complaints. Ya, I did this to a Bluru land developer and took him to court, the judge sided with me and he had to pay damages.

AAI has changed due to Praful Patel's cracking the whip. However their designs are implemented by private parties for the most part. The airports still lack other conveniences as pointed out by aranjan. They still don't measure upto BIAL or HIAL or DIAL or MIAL. Let us await a few years and see whether the airports by AAI are well maintained and not degenerate into another pigsty.

Last edited by barrykul; February 26th, 2010 at 06:37 AM.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 07:43 AM   #2263
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I agree, something needs to be done. I am myself trying to do some things, including filing a document in support of AAI case against BIAL in court. In the short term, this seems to be one way. Any positive ideas welcome, especially those that can be pursued by non-residents of Bangalore.

Some of the other steps such as RTI filings have already been done by responsible citizens, that is how we know many things in the first place. PILs have been done and have failed as it is executive decision. Recently court held that BIAL is a 'public entity' in the meaning of RTI Act, so they have to reply to requests for documents. I salute the person that went to the trouble of filing this and spending his/her time and money. I have to frankly admit I would not have gone that far...in a small way I will do what I can, incl. financial contributions to such crusaders.

In forums like this, the first and very easy step is to stop defending such practices and make it clear to them that they may have fooled us but not earned our praise and respect for it.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 04:28 PM   #2264
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I'm really impressed that you are filing complaints and taking them to court. Bravo!! You are better than the rest of us here who just sit and complain about stuff.

We need more citizens to care and have the determination to go and sue companies and politicans who lie to the masses.

We should expect and accept only the best from our government!! Otherwise we will always be stuck in the India of the last century.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #2265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by think-tank View Post
why are you comparing Bangalore Airport to Changi? Come on, it's not fair to compare it like that, it's really unrealistic to expect such things to happen in India

If everyone though like you, we would still have HAL and politicians would say "It's not fair to expect better in India"

We need WORLD CLASS infrastructure, not India-Class

India is a poor country, but that does NOT mean that we can't expect the best. Look at China, Brazil, Morrocco, South Africa, Turkey, etc. They are all poor countries, but they have superb infrastructure! Why should India not?


P.S.- The comparison with Changi was only about airport land.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #2266
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I agree it is not fair to compare with Changi. After all, using much less land they built 4 terminals, not 1, all of which much bigger than BIAL and provide WORLD NO.1 or TOP 3 kind of facilities and for all that charge only Rs.900 or so, less than what BIAL charges for international departure. This is despite much higher staff salaries and other operational expenses.

And from what I know, CAAS that built Changi did not ask for thousands of acres of land to plunder RE profits as a 'incentive' for building the airport.

We are special onlee...no comparison with anyone in the world.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #2267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
If everyone though like you, we would still have HAL and politicians would say "It's not fair to expect better in India"

We need WORLD CLASS infrastructure, not India-Class

India is a poor country, but that does NOT mean that we can't expect the best.
You can expect the best when everything else is the best, when it's not - you shouldn't expect the best but keep your expectations realistic and down to earth. Singapore has 99% literacy rate, small geography, 80% work force and 0 corrupt politicians. It's not like that in India, of course poverty and illiteracy is dropping at the rate of 5 to 7% which is a good thing for India. What if there was no airport or metro proposal? This forum would have looked pretty dull, now that there is something going on, we have people complaining about it. It's a sad story of this country, people are too nostalgic and narrow minded.
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Old February 26th, 2010, 11:00 PM   #2268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by think-tank View Post
You can expect the best when everything else is the best, when it's not - you shouldn't expect the best but keep your expectations realistic and down to earth.

When I pay my taxpayer money to a company which has promised me a building that can accommodate 12 million people, I expect a building that can accommodate 12 million people.

BIAL has built a building for 5 million people and made last minute changes. They themselves have admitted this.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #2269
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only because the govt. laid out plans for a 5 mil airport and then changed the figures later on during the construction phase. BIAL instead of telling the govt. "Screw You" made the modifications and are now willing to build a 2nd terminal to compensate for it. That too has been said before!!

Stop comparing with other airports, all the terminals are not built together.. The land which is given to BIAL is for the final master plan of the airport, which was never going to be built right away! it was supposed to be for the future

Not one person here has the guts to go to a babu and hold him responsible for the mess, but since a private player is ther, lets all jump on them and make sure they pay for the mess (someone has to pay, and since we cant get the babu who caused the mess, then lets kill BIAL)

Its not like BIAL was working in a vacuum. The govt, had members on its board, full access to the plans, why didn't they use "your tax money" to monitor the progress instead of sleeping then making a fuss now?

A private player is always looking for profit! that is what drives them to do business and care enough to make sure people at the airport keep it clean and help the passengers out!

What will suing BIAL do? who are you suing? has anyone thought to use the RTI and dig out the documents pertaining to what specifications the govt. wanted the concessioner to build with?

So here is the scenario now. AAI (who should be sued first) will sue BIAL, in the mean time, knowing that they may get into trouble, the concessioner stops all progress on future construction. Suppose AAI wins the fight to reopen HAL. BIAL loses revenue, becomes a non profitable venture and the private players walk away from it! end of story! This of course will take a few years while the traffic at whichever airport is functioning will be bursting through the seams!
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Old February 27th, 2010, 05:04 PM   #2270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skdubai View Post
Suppose AAI wins the fight to reopen HAL. BIAL loses revenue, becomes a non profitable venture and the private players walk away from it! end of story!
Strange..we have jingos here that are saying they will not go to HAL even if it is next door, now that BIAL is open, and most people hate AAI, and HAL...let me admit I hate HAL too..

How come the minute they open BIAL will completely fold up and become non-profitable? Are we in love with pigsties? Are we expecting both airlines and passengers to make non-rational choices?

Why should they lobby so heavily against something that was never in the original bid RFP? Any particular reason they are afraid of competition? Are there not cities where two airports function without one killing the other?

Anyway it seem HAL will not reopen nor I am I so particular about it...just wanted to point out the strange logic of jingos that want us to surrender to BIAL simply because they were kind enough suffer, poor guys, only to make 800% return in 2 years of recession for their shareholders.....what a pity, let us shed a few tears for them...

BTW suing AAI makes no sense - if they pay a fine of 1,000cr it comes out of our pocket too, in way of taxes...it is right hand suing left hand, only lawyers make money..

AAI is suing BIAL all I am saying is we can add our voice of support to it and force them to make up by building a proper T2 not a NANO T2. That's all. No more. What is gone is gone and the only point of discussing is it to ensure we DONT repeat the same mistake. But it seems our jingos and hallelujahs are strongly in favor of sending a message to BIAL that just like they did with T1, they can fool us once again on T2 and not worry a bit....

Last edited by chenmani; February 27th, 2010 at 05:12 PM.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 05:19 PM   #2271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skdubai View Post

Stop comparing with other airports, all the terminals are not built together.. The land which is given to BIAL is for the final master plan of the airport, which was never going to be built right away! it was supposed to be for the future
Are you willing to guarantee that the land will ONLY be used for aviation related activity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skdubai View Post

Its not like BIAL was working in a vacuum. The govt, had members on its board, full access to the plans, why didn't they use "your tax money" to monitor the progress instead of sleeping then making a fuss now?
That is like saying 'the police should have caught the thieves long back, they failed, now let us start singing the tunes given by the thieves'. We have to go after BOTH - corrupt BABUS and crooked moneybags that take advantage of that, where such practices exist..
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Old February 27th, 2010, 07:08 PM   #2272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skdubai View Post
only because the govt. laid out plans for a 5 mil airport and then changed the figures later on during the construction phase. BIAL instead of telling the govt. "Screw You" made the modifications and are now willing to build a 2nd terminal to compensate for it. That too has been said before!!

Government did NOT "lay out plans" for the capacity. This is a private project. BIAL did all their studies themselves!
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Old February 28th, 2010, 04:46 PM   #2273
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Originally Posted by niknak View Post
When I pay my taxpayer money to a company which has promised me a building that can accommodate 12 million people, I expect a building that can accommodate 12 million people.

BIAL has built a building for 5 million people and made last minute changes. They themselves have admitted this.
Tax payer to a company?????, you pay tax to government not to BIAL, and BIAL is 27 % gov only rest is private investment mate.....
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Old February 28th, 2010, 08:51 PM   #2274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashwinsna View Post
you pay tax to government not to BIAL, and BIAL is 27 % gov only rest is private investment mate.....
I pay the government. Government pays BIAL & gives lots of land to BIAL... Don't tell me my money isn't going to BIAL


Plus, I pay EXTREMELY high UDF fees at BIAL--some of the highest in the world!!
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Old February 28th, 2010, 09:12 PM   #2275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
Government did NOT "lay out plans" for the capacity. This is a private project. BIAL did all their studies themselves!
O really now.. so ur saying the govt. was so dumb that they invited bids (without any specifications on what the traffic would be) and selected a consortium and said... please go ahead and build us an airport???? seriously? you believe that???

If they actually did that and everyone went with it, then why is anyone blaming BIAL???

Quote:
Originally Posted by niknak View Post
I pay the government. Government pays BIAL & gives lots of land to BIAL... Don't tell me my money isn't going to BIAL


Plus, I pay EXTREMELY high UDF fees at BIAL--some of the highest in the world!!
The land belongs to BIAL which btw only has a concession for 35 years, after which the land, the building and the entire infrastructure goes back to the govt. or whoever they choose to run the airport. During this period, BIAL is free to with that land as it pleases to make revenue out of it! If you dont like this, the time to complain was about 5 -6 years agoo when this proposal was being studied. Not now!!

Similar amounts of land is given ti HIAL and the same will be done with Mumbai and Delhi airports! That how this business works! you do not see so many complaints about that!

BIAL is an SPV which runs the airport!! and it has been given the land so that when the airport reaches its full capacity, it will have enough land and wont have to go out and start the land acquisition process all over again! Again BIAL owns that land, not GVK, not any one of the share holders!!! BIAL will be fully owned by the govt. once the concession agreement runs out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chenmani View Post
Are you willing to guarantee that the land will ONLY be used for aviation related activity?



That is like saying 'the police should have caught the thieves long back, they failed, now let us start singing the tunes given by the thieves'. We have to go after BOTH - corrupt BABUS and crooked moneybags that take advantage of that, where such practices exist..

The land is meant for the airport, the concessioner cannot just sell the land or some unrelated crap. The objective for BIAL is to make profit and hence it makes no sense for them to use this land for anything else but aviation related activities. Besides they only have the land for the concession period, not forever, so what exactly are you worried they will do with this land?


And am not saying we should let BIAL go if there is some mismanagement. But i do not think AAI has the right to do it! they are part of BIAL. so they arr suing themselves?? that makes sense??? besides, suing BIAL is going to make matters worse. What is needed now is the work on the new terminal to move quickly not for it to stuck in our legal system which will take 10 years to get anything done while the people suffer!!
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Old February 28th, 2010, 09:21 PM   #2276
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Originally Posted by chenmani View Post
Strange..we have jingos here that are saying they will not go to HAL even if it is next door, now that BIAL is open, and most people hate AAI, and HAL...let me admit I hate HAL too..

How come the minute they open BIAL will completely fold up and become non-profitable? Are we in love with pigsties? Are we expecting both airlines and passengers to make non-rational choices?

Why should they lobby so heavily against something that was never in the original bid RFP? Any particular reason they are afraid of competition? Are there not cities where two airports function without one killing the other?

Anyway it seem HAL will not reopen nor I am I so particular about it...just wanted to point out the strange logic of jingos that want us to surrender to BIAL simply because they were kind enough suffer, poor guys, only to make 800% return in 2 years of recession for their shareholders.....what a pity, let us shed a few tears for them...

BTW suing AAI makes no sense - if they pay a fine of 1,000cr it comes out of our pocket too, in way of taxes...it is right hand suing left hand, only lawyers make money..

AAI is suing BIAL all I am saying is we can add our voice of support to it and force them to make up by building a proper T2 not a NANO T2. That's all. No more. What is gone is gone and the only point of discussing is it to ensure we DONT repeat the same mistake. But it seems our jingos and hallelujahs are strongly in favor of sending a message to BIAL that just like they did with T1, they can fool us once again on T2 and not worry a bit....
Everyone who says that now will move back to HAL when they realize that it only takes them a fraction of the time to get to the airport. People will chose the most convenient option and airlines will chose what the people choose! and hence low foot fall = low revenue = bigger mess!

I am not saying SUE AAI per se, but it as i said before it makes no sense for AAI to sue BIAL because they have a stake in it!! When they point the finger at BIAL, people should ask AAI why were u sleeping when you knew all this all along ???
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Old March 1st, 2010, 03:47 AM   #2277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skdubai View Post
And am not saying we should let BIAL go if there is some mismanagement. But i do not think AAI has the right to do it! they are part of BIAL. so they arr suing themselves?? that makes sense??? besides, suing BIAL is going to make matters worse. What is needed now is the work on the new terminal to move quickly not for it to stuck in our legal system which will take 10 years to get anything done while the people suffer!!
AAI cannot sue...Govt is also part of BIAL, so they cannot sue. Ordinary public cannot sue because they are not party to contract (already PIL got thrown out)...So we have to bring god down to earth in another avatar to sue BIAL? Are you not familiar with concept that each company is separate even if all shareholders are same? This is established since 1800s not new...AAI is a minority shareholder with corresponding rights. They dont run the show.

Many of the good things about this new airport are not BIAL credit - nice approach roads (NH7), BTS Volvo buses 24hrs, Baggage handling (AI/SATS JV), ATC (run by AAI) and so on...the terminal is BIAL and they screwed up on that...

The framework is the concession agreement. If that gets violated in a material way, it is for the affected parties to sue. We push GOI to act and be sensible...

I agree...for some things it is too late...It is too late because of the non-transparent way things were done. If they had published everything on a website, there would have been a storm of protest years ago. Now we have to get it thru RTI etc., like pulling teeth from elephant...is that the way you want this country to be governed?

There are multiple issues with whole process, each one shares blame

Non transparent tendering - GOI
Lack of oversight - DGCA, AAI
Building NANO terminal, spin yarn about capacity, delay T2 - BIAL

Even now, we don't see ANY PLANS FOR T2, even mock-up designs or blue prints or even broad initial specs... If we keep our mouths shut and sing Hallelujah again it will be done in opaque way, and sealed in concrete and shoved down our throat...with a further increase in already sky high UDF...it is already two years too late...

Wake up guys...for your sake, not for anyone else...

Last edited by chenmani; March 1st, 2010 at 03:58 AM.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 04:15 AM   #2278
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Let's move on. There is no point in this discussion. Some people are blindly in love with BIAL and will not accept any criticism.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 06:37 AM   #2279
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Angry

guys, can you please stop this argument... its going nowhere

instead please jot down what all you want T2 to deliver.
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Old March 1st, 2010, 08:08 AM   #2280
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I agree...I think I have said all that I need to say...no further need to convince those that are not willing to listen...AMEN!
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