Bengaluru International Airport (BIAL) Discussions

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

Second runway at BIA: IAF in talks with Aviation Ministry

I don't know where the question of talks and reolution arises when the NOC has already been given by MoD. July 16th, the issue was stated as resolved - http://bangalorebuzz.blogspot.com/20...on-course.html
:-) now yet another flipflop.

[Devesh]

Originally Posted by Raichen

I agree with you. I have seen in the past that when ever its convenient for Devesh's argument, the price tag of the airport goes up to 10000 cr and then when it comes to the proposed rail link, suddenly the airport price drops to 2500 cr.

Raichen, I still stand by 10,000 Cr. That is the total cost of the airport to the citizens of Bangalore. 2500 Cr is the investment till date.

But take either figure. Spending 5000 Cr, over and above the 1600 Cr already spent, is diverting already precious resources.

At a time money is scare for the REST of Bangalore, and the state government is begging for funds from the centre for the overall development of Bangalore infrastructure, does it make sense to spend 5000+ Cr on a rail link dedicated for the airport ?

The reason for BIAL PPP was a lack of enough funds, and to bring in private sector agility. Similarly we should ensure that the rail link is financed in such a way that only airport operators and users (passengers and aero-city employers/employees) pay for it. The general population of Bangalore should not, and only because of the more pressing need of funds for the overall growth of the city.

But then, you work out the rider ship. Just by passengers alone it will not work out; the rail link can never pay for itself. Then the rail-link will have to rely on aero-city, airport employees, etc. Then just one boarding point in an already congested central Bangalore, does not offer the needed convenience.

I remember some one doing the financial calculations on Praja. Feel free to check it out.

[Devesh]

Originally Posted by 2Paise

Bangalore int'l airport heading for bankruptcy

One of my points of contention in this story. The original payback period planned was 7~9 years. How and why, has it become imperative, to reduce that to 5 years ? Who has taken the decision ? Has the general public interest been thought of ? Why is there no transparency in this fee-levying process ?

This is the kind of unilateralism, monopolies breed. Be it private or government. The only difference with a Government monopoly, is that the citizens still have options to approach and influence politicians.

[vvr]

Originally Posted by Devesh

AAI should be corporatised just like DOT was converted to BSNL. Then lets see how they give other developers a run for the money.

Yes tell me, how is BSNL giving its competitors a run for the money? I am willing to be enlightened

I thought it was this....

http://www.financialexpress.com/news...-telco/348094/

inspite of this....

BSNL has prime real estate, access to the best spectrum, has been guaranteed priority spectrum for 3G, and by virtue of its state-owned status, will always have a line of sight into spectrum.

(the above taken from an article by Shalini Singh in the TOI on Aug 9 quoted in a posting in Praja)

AND..

the fact that BSNL or its previous incarnation (P&T etc.) had been entrenched in this business for decades before the others showed up. They had vast reserves of equipment, knowledge, processes and R&D capabilities.

And speaking of AAI, I just got back from a trip to Chandigarh. If you thought that the following was humorous (especially the puzzled look on the hapless passenger), imagine the same "Passenger Path" in pouring rain!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=779

(devesh, I am afraid you will have to parade your BIAL cargo photos again

The sight of runners employed by the various airlines to walk with their passengers holding umbrellas was straight out of a sitcom. Except of course if you are the one to slip and slide in tassled loafers like yours truly! The same scene was repeated on the airside as well.

My experience at Delhi terminal 1B was only slightly better since it is really AAI v 2.0 inspite of DIAL's frantic efforts-- what is it they say about putting lipstick on a pig..

I was glad for BIAL when I got home. I know I was supposed to feel claustrophobic because I only had 17.25 Sq m of personal space as opposed to the IATA mandated minimum of 25 sq m. Even if I did, the feeling only lasted for 7 or 8 minutes because that is how long I took to transit through the airport.

The scene outside the airport Thursday at 9:30 pm was something else though. I had to stand in the taxi line for 30 minutes because apparently vehicles were stranded in the city due to flooding after receiving 5 cm of rain. Now that says a lot about the general state of infrastructure in the city.

[raghussc]

Two aspects on saying that BIAL leading to Bankruptcy.

1) Trying to make a statement to govt to act fast on allowing BIAL to collect UDF - the proposal has been sitting with Patel for too long. Funny thing is HIAL does not try to employ this bankruptcy tactics to pressure the govt. No surprise if MoCA gives HIAL the first permission to collect UDF coz their proposal charges various UDF amounts depending on the distance of travel. BIAL insists on single charge.

2) Siemens/Zurich trying to exit out of BIAL and give the monopoly to AAI to make the terminal a AAI-certified warehouse

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by raghussc

2) Siemens/Zurich trying to exit out of BIAL and give the monopoly to AAI to make the terminal a AAI-certified warehouse

This might be true. I read a comment posted by a Siemens employee in praja, that one of Siemens executive was expressing doubts on the longevity of BIAL project during a employee town hall mtg, maybe they are trying to unload this project after all.

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by Devesh

Raichen, I still stand by 10,000 Cr. That is the total cost of the airport to the citizens of Bangalore. 2500 Cr is the investment till date.

But take either figure. Spending 5000 Cr, over and above the 1600 Cr already spent, is diverting already precious resources.

At a time money is scare for the REST of Bangalore, and the state government is begging for funds from the centre for the overall development of Bangalore infrastructure, does it make sense to spend 5000+ Cr on a rail link dedicated for the airport ?
.

I actually don't have any opinion nor any interest in this rail link. My issue is with people twisting the facts to gain advantage in their arguments and create a smoke screen. I don't care if you use 2500 Cr or 10,000 Cr as the airport cost, just pick a number and consistently stick with it in all your arguments.

Sorry to say but some of your postings are well-suited for a tabloid publication

[dakshinapraja]

double post..

[dakshinapraja]

Originally Posted by Raichen

This might be true. I read a comment posted by a Siemens employee in praja, that one of Siemens executive was expressing doubts on the longevity of BIAL project during a employee town hall mtg, maybe they are trying to unload this project after all.

I would'nt blame them. Tatas, an Indian company, also walked out because of the Government's inconsistent policies and politics. I think it is a miracle that with all the politics involved (just see the compiled version that mailabode provided) we have come to the stage where there is a functional airport in the first place.

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by Devesh

One of my points of contention in this story. The original payback period planned was 7~9 years. How and why, has it become imperative, to reduce that to 5 years ? Who has taken the decision ? Has the general public interest been thought of ? Why is there no transparency in this fee-levying process ?

This is the kind of unilateralism, monopolies breed. Be it private or government. The only difference with a Government monopoly, is that the citizens still have options to approach and influence politicians.

What BS is this? You are always gonna complain, aren't you?. I guess your job is to just criticize BIAL "or" you are one of those socialists who fails to comprehend the fundamentals

Maybe you should begin your posts by saying one good thing about BIAL before posting your anti-BIAL rants, in this way atleast you might earn some credibility

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by Devesh

At a time money is scare for the REST of Bangalore, and the state government is begging for funds from the centre for the overall development of Bangalore infrastructure, does it make sense to spend 5000+ Cr on a rail link dedicated for the airport ?

That is precisely why the infrastucture thing needs to be thought of as a whole without politics and turf wars. The existing railway line near the new airport needs to be looked at to see how it can be utilized more efficiently to serve the airport also. And that is why experts like Sreedharan should be allowed to do their job without politics and our half baked knowledge derailing his efforts (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2/b4026009.htm). People with such resumes would have flourished abroad. We are talking about lack of funds when software exports touch Rs70,000 crores(http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/22/stor...2251170800.htm) and to earn more can't we raise capital and spend money to provide for overall infrastructure? Money is scarce is no longer true(may have been valid in the socialist dys 20 years ago). The problem now is politics and rampant corruption with everybody wanting a free meal and a pie of the gold to be made in infrastucture development. The money alloted never makes it down to the intended use.

The reason for BIAL PPP was a lack of enough funds, and to bring in private sector agility. Similarly we should ensure that the rail link is financed in such a way that only airport operators and users (passengers and aero-city employers/employees) pay for it. The general population of Bangalore should not, and only because of the more pressing need of funds for the overall growth of the city.

But then, you work out the rider ship. Just by passengers alone it will not work out; the rail link can never pay for itself. Then the rail-link will have to rely on aero-city, airport employees, etc. Then just one boarding point in an already congested central Bangalore, does not offer the needed convenience.

I remember some one doing the financial calculations on Praja. Feel free to check it out.

Sreedharan has proved that a Metro can be run profitably (http://www.hindu.com/2007/09/24/stor...2457210400.htm). I feel if everybody..Sreedharan,Railways,Gok go back to the drawing board without politics I am sure a solution can be worked out as far as the requirements are concerned. A good city rail network with a connection to the airport is a good overall solution. Regarding congestion in the city center.....well....if we out a paan shop in a remote corner of Bangalore there will be congestion around it after 10 days if traffic around it is not managed properly. Congestion needs to be managed. I was amazed at the constantly moving multiple queues of taxis outside Paddington station. They had a system which was working pefectly in the limited space without congestion. Multiple checkin terminals in the city should not be an issue if executed well and managed properly.

[mailabode]

Originally Posted by Devesh

Raichen, I still stand by 10,000 Cr. That is the total cost of the airport to the citizens of Bangalore. 2500 Cr is the investment till date.

But take either figure. Spending 5000 Cr, over and above the 1600 Cr already spent, is diverting already precious resources.

At a time money is scare for the REST of Bangalore, and the state government is begging for funds from the centre for the overall development of Bangalore infrastructure, does it make sense to spend 5000+ Cr on a rail link dedicated for the airport ?

The reason for BIAL PPP was a lack of enough funds, and to bring in private sector agility. Similarly we should ensure that the rail link is financed in such a way that only airport operators and users (passengers and aero-city employers/employees) pay for it. The general population of Bangalore should not, and only because of the more pressing need of funds for the overall growth of the city.

But then, you work out the rider ship. Just by passengers alone it will not work out; the rail link can never pay for itself. Then the rail-link will have to rely on aero-city, airport employees, etc. Then just one boarding point in an already congested central Bangalore, does not offer the needed convenience.

I remember some one doing the financial calculations on Praja. Feel free to check it out.

Originally Posted by bialterminal

That is precisely why the infrastucture thing needs to be thought of as a whole without politics and turf wars. The existing railway line near the new airport needs to be looked at to see how it can be utilized more efficiently to serve the airport also. And that is why experts like Sreedharan should be allowed to do their job without politics and our half baked knowledge derailing his efforts (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...2/b4026009.htm). People with such resumes would have flourished abroad. We are talking about lack of funds when software exports touch Rs70,000 crores(http://www.hindu.com/2007/10/22/stor...2251170800.htm) and to earn more can't we raise capital and spend money to provide for overall infrastructure? Money is scarce is no longer true(may have been valid in the socialist dys 20 years ago). The problem now is politics and rampant corruption with everybody wanting a free meal and a pie of the gold to be made in infrastucture development. The money alloted never makes it down to the intended use.

Scarcity of funds?- whats this a trip on the socialistic path?. I mean why is the talk being diverted from one of 'funds for this specific train project' ' to 'availibility of funds with the Govt for projects in general' ?. That has nothing to do with the funds for this project- nobody asking the Govt to invest.

Lets focus on projects by their attractiveness to investors (an investor who wants to invest in project A will not invest in project B just because B also needs help).
Its already been worked out by someone on SSC that the express train to BIAL will pay for itself and recover its capital in a finite years.

Paucity of funds with the Govt is all the more reson to invite investment from either Indian or Foreign operators on a BOT model. Lots of people internationally with lots of money, but who are not investing nowadays because they dont have a risk free project investment in this uncertain period. The train project to BIAL is a very attractive project to any foreign investor even in this economically sluggish period because a minimum return is assured, provided HAL is closed to commercial ops permanently. The investor decides than anybody else if its worth investing in a project. They decide if its really a "4000 for 2000" investment that some people claim it to be) - so leave it to them (now i hope these affected pessimists dont start saying the investors will charge high ticket fares on the train- because the fares are discussed and fare guidelines fixed in advance with the Govt before any contract is awarded). They bring in the money and make the train service happen - so i dont see a reason for crying about funds here - this lamenting makes abolutely no sense and is just a diversionary tactic.

Its not necessary the airport operators only should invest in the project. However they can be partners so that the project meshes well with the airport and future ops are integrated smoothely.



BT, your opinion on this please.

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by mailabode

Scarcity of funds?- whats this a trip on the socialistic path?. I mean why is the talk being diverted from one of 'funds for this specific train project' ' to 'availibility of funds with the Govt for projects in general' ?. That has nothing to do with the funds for this project- nobody asking the Govt to invest.

Lets focus on projects by their attractiveness to investors (an investor who wants to invest in project A will not invest in project B just because B also needs help).
Its already been worked out by someone on SSC that the express train to BIAL will pay for itself and recover its capital in a finite years(i hope that person does not go back and delete his post now).

Paucity of funds with the Govt is all the more reson to invite investment from either Indian or Foreign operators on a BOT model. Lots of people internationally with lots of money, but who are not willing to invest because they dont have a risk free project investment in this uncertain period. If HAL is closed forever to commercial ops then the train project to BIAL is a very attractive project to any foreign investor even in this economically sluggish period because a minimum return is assured. They bring in the money and make the train service happen - so i dont see a reason for crying about funds here - this lamenting makes abolutely no sense and is just a deverion from reality.

Its not necessary the airport operators only should invest in the project. However they can be partners so that the project meshes well with the airport and future ops are integrated smoothely.



BT, your opinion on this please.

There is no dearth of Investment waiting in the wings as everybody is making a beeline towards the Indian infrastructure development party. But, 1) Development of specifications & standards at a national level 2) Managing the execution of projects to confirm to those universal standards 3) corruption 4) unstable politics and populist policies are the biggest issues I guess. The reason I am talking about standards is because of the recent controversy of NH7 becoming unsafe because of increased airport traffic & lack of lights. How could anybody (private or govt.) design & implement a high speed roadway without grade separation of pedestrians & cross traffic, plus having speed breakers is beyond my comprehension (http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/20...s-a-death-trap). Also, we forget the supporting "soft" infrastructure (http://bangalore.praja.in/discuss/20...p#comment-6056) which is absolutely required for overall safety.

[Raichen]

BLR-LHR from sept 3rd;

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/B...ow/3373011.cms

Some insider info on BLR-SFO service;

The first set of kingfisher crew members to get the American C1/2 Crew visas have appointments with the American Embassy/Consulate on the 29th August! This service should begin sometime in mid-late Sept, at the below schedule;

" IT 001 BLR Dep 0130 - SFO Arr 06:30 *
IT 02 SFO Dep 10:00 - BLR Arr 17:00+1 * "

* subject to govt approval

PS: SFO custom & immigration services opens only at 7:30am, so not sure how KF is going to handle the 60 mins wait time if they arrive in SFO at 6:30 am

[mpvp]

HAL’s tarmac geared up for flight operations
Sunday August 17 2008 03:26 IST

Hemanth CS | ENS

BANGALORE: As the D-day approaches to decide on the fate of Bangalore’s commercial airspace, the HAL airport which was closed down for commercial operations following the commissioning of the Bengaluru International Airport (BIA), is gearing up once again to roll out its tarmac for flights to take off and land.

With the hearing of the petition relating to reopening of the HAL airport slated for August 22, the Airport Authority of India (AAI) is geared up to start commercial flight operations, provided the verdict favours Bangalore to have two airports.

"In case the HAL airport is asked to start commercial flight operations, we are ready. All systems are in place except the security.

The Central Industrial Security Force (CISF) will have to be deployed for an airport to operate civil and commercial flights," senior AAI Officials told to this website's newspaper.

Officials added that the airport was in a good condition and the present infrastructure was sufficient for flights to commence operations.


The need for Bangalore to have two airports is gathering steam as the facilities at the BIA are found to be below par, with the State Government exposing the lapses in the airport and calling for reopening of the HAL airport.

----------------------------------------

More details at
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems...alore&Topic=0&

[zenith_suv]

btw - when is this D-day

[Nag123]

Good !!!! First Indian Pvt airline to fly abroad from Bangalore ?? At last, Bangalore people have got more choice especially for intl travel.

Originally Posted by Raichen

BLR-LHR from sept 3rd;

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/B...ow/3373011.cms

Some insider info on BLR-SFO service;

The first set of kingfisher crew members to get the American C1/2 Crew visas have appointments with the American Embassy/Consulate on the 29th August! This service should begin sometime in mid-late Sept, at the below schedule;

" IT 001 BLR Dep 0130 - SFO Arr 06:30 *
IT 02 SFO Dep 10:00 - BLR Arr 17:00+1 * "

* subject to govt approval

PS: SFO custom & immigration services opens only at 7:30am, so not sure how KF is going to handle the 60 mins wait time if they arrive in SFO at 6:30 am

[raghussc]

Excellento ! But I wonder if AAI being a partner in BIAL can make such statements in public !?! Any integrity issues ??? Looks like AAI ego is hurt in Bangalore badly.

For the nth time, we have another D-day which happens to be 22 Aug Lets see if High Court will again postpone or if AAI will request for postponement again at the 11th hour.

Sadly, this will not be the D-day in any case. Given the structure of legal system, either party will definitely approach supreme court, and God knows when supreme court will give the dates and ruling

Originally Posted by mpvp

HAL’s tarmac geared up for flight operations
Sunday August 17 2008 03:26 IST

Hemanth CS | ENS

BANGALORE: As the D-day approaches ....

With the hearing of the petition relating to reopening of the HAL airport slated for August 22, the Airport Authority of India (AAI) is geared up to start commercial flight operations, provided the verdict favours Bangalore to have two airports.

"In case the HAL airport is asked to start commercial flight operations, we are ready. All systems are in place except the security.

The need for Bangalore to have two airports is gathering steam as the facilities at the BIA are found to be below par, with the State Government exposing the lapses in the airport and calling for reopening of the HAL airport.

----------------------------------------

More details at
http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems...alore&Topic=0&

[genialgiant]

Bloggers on BIAL

http://www.indiamike.com/india/banga...tional-t60211/
http://www.sarnacke.com/blog/2008/08...w-airport.html

[Devesh]

Originally Posted by Raichen

I actually don't have any opinion nor any interest in this rail link. My issue is with people twisting the facts to gain advantage in their arguments and create a smoke screen. I don't care if you use 2500 Cr or 10,000 Cr as the airport cost, just pick a number and consistently stick with it in all your arguments.

Sorry to say but some of your postings are well-suited for a tabloid publication

Sorry to say, but I have clarified the difference between the 2500 Cr and 10,000 Cr. in earlier posts, and I have neither the inclination or the time to do it a second time.