Bengaluru International Airport (BIAL) Discussions

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by Devesh

Raghu, many airlines do not want to incur the additional cost and burden of split operations at two airports. It could be for a multitude of reasons.

3. They do not want to antagonise BIAL. (Mr. Brunner has a reputation in this regard).
etc.

Did you just cook this up on the fly??

I'm sure its other way round. BIAL might be adamant about not accepting open-HAL demands but they sure have & will bend over backwards for the airlines. AFAIK BIAL has done everything to attract and accommodate airlines even after Mr.Mallya publicly criticized BIAL in the press

[Raichen]

Originally Posted by 2Paise

This is a rendering of the hotel u/c opposite the airport terminal

Is this hotel coming up in between the two terminals (the existing one and the planned second phase) ?

Looks like rendering has "Hilton" logo in it. I thought this would be a oberoi hotel. Is there another oberoi under construction or am I just getting things mixed up. anyone?

[2Paise]

Originally Posted by Raichen

Is this hotel coming up in between the two terminals (the existing one and the planned second phase) ?

Looks like rendering has "Hilton" logo in it. I thought this would be a oberoi hotel. Is there another oberoi under construction or am I just getting things mixed up. anyone?

Its a Trident Hilton...Trident is one of the brands of Oberoi...TH is a joint venture i assume.

[dakshinapraja]

Originally Posted by 2Paise

This is a rendering of the hotel u/c opposite the airport terminal

Nice! Where is the source of this? Are there any more renders?

[2Paise]

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

Nice! Where is the source of this? Are there any more renders?

http://www.rspindia.net/

[dakshinapraja]

Thanks!

[2Paise]

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

Thanks!

Yea its an annoying Flash site...so i cant copy/paste the project information

[dakshinapraja]

true, and they are not giving away much as regards the project, are they?

[2Paise]

2009?I thought it was opening in Nov 2008

[raghussc]

Seems like even Oberoi group was hesitant and doubtful abt BIAL that they took this long to even get started ... on the other hand Novotel is opening it's airport hotel in HIAL next month.

[dakshinapraja]

Originally Posted by raghussc

Seems like even Oberoi group was hesitant and doubtful abt BIAL that they took this long to even get started ... on the other hand Novotel is opening it's airport hotel in HIAL next month.

If you look at the tortous history of BIAL, would'nt you also be doubtful?!

[amaku]

For me, HAL's biggest drawback is none of these:

• it's a cowshed
• it's dirty & unhygienic
• it's terribly ineffecient
• it's unworthy of being the gateway to the city

All of these problems can be fixed with a little bit of management effort and care.

HAL's biggest problem is it's owner the Govt. I am stridently opposed to government involvement in most things especially, service delivery. Sadly, that can never change with HAL and therefore I can never, ever support HAL being reopened.

For my reasons, please check:
http://praja.in/discuss/2008/07/the-...g#comment-6565

--amaku

[zenith_suv]

B'luru is not a big enough city to merit 2 airports . expand one and that should cut it easily for next many years to come.

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by mailabode

I wont be surprised if this man claims he wants two state governments that compete with each other so that he can choose which he likes because its his fundamental right.

I had taken the risk of putting out that proposal (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=547) -

Beating the "monopoly" and "competition" drums I can argue that India needs to have 2 or 3 govts. running in parallel at any given instant of time and I should be able to choose which govt. rules me on that day depending on my mood, price of oil-food & vegetables, stock market and so on; does it make sense though; definitely no.

Whew!!..luckily there were no takers. I was quite stressed because if I learnt that there was a choice as I had requested in my post I would have had to go back to school to relearn Civics.

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by Devesh

BT, in my original message, I have offered you the help of the Chamber, and my support to muster the AOC and petition the government on improving ATC efficiency.



Any response to this offer ? I am really serious about this, and asking for your help. If anyone else here on SSC can help us on this, let us prepare a proper document which will serve as a foundation for pushing this idea through.

Devesh,
I need to really think how I can fit in to that role and how I can add value.
But, as you might be aware, I think the right entity (FAA) is involved in that aspect and hopfully things will improve - http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...ia/SATNAV6.PDF
Me being of any use takes a massive committment and a lot of resources which I would not like to make hurriedly. Thanks for the offer but short answer is - no - at this time.

[bialterminal]

Originally Posted by Devesh

BT, along with your traffic comparisons, first you should also post the CARs of the respective countries. We cannot modify the requirements to fit the model, it has to be the other way around.

I fully agree with you that the 2 minute separation norms need to be reduced, I am with you man. Help me draft a petition that we can put before DGCA from the Chamber. Prepare a white paper. I will submit it via the Chamber. Will push the Airlines Operating Committee to also support.

But these are changes that are going to take time to come. You cannot accelerate them and use them as a gospel truth overnight.

Just as an example. See the changes on our highways over the last few years. We have the 4 lane "golden quadrilateral". We have new generation cars. Full safety. But............. we still have morons who will drive in the centre lane at 40kmph. Our trucks when loaded cannot climb a 7 degree gradient without slowing down to 10kmph. People still drive at 80kmph in a new generation car.

Not their fault. Changing standards requires time to incorporate. Just FYI, talk to the US pilots who operate LAX, SFO, JFK, ORD. Their biggest complaints about foreign airline pilots is that they are "too slow", and this is when most foreign airlines put their most experienced pilots on US routes.

Not that the new standards should not be pushed.



BT, LGA is at capacity 26 million 2 runways, but see the runway itself and the rapid exits, and the fact that LGA does less than 30 second separations. JFK is thinking of auctioning slots to de-congest. EWR is also approaching capacity. Also between these 3 airports there are 8 runways.

Let us not overlook that ATL handles 89 million with just 1 airport. But then what is the REAL effective traffic. ATL has only 19% origin traffic. 81% fly-in, connect, fly-out.

US allows for 30 second separation between flights, in India, and almost all of Asia it is 2 minutes.

It is not so easy to do a comparison. ATC needs improvement, no doubt about it, and with your support we can do something about it. Ready to get involved ?

Devesh,
Regarding the followin para from your above post ->
> Just FYI, talk to the US pilots who operate LAX, SFO, JFK, ORD. Their > >biggest complaints about foreign airline pilots is that they are "too slow", >and this is when most foreign airlines put their most experienced pilots on >US routes.
You are correct about the problem of Foreign pilots being a bit slow. Even though ATCs and Pilots are supposed to try stick to standard ATC lingo that does not happen sometimes. But, I don't think that would be one of the reasons not to push forward improvements in airspace management. The pilots are competent enough to understand new standards and adapt since they fly globally and interact with different ATCs. Whether it is in the US or India efforts must be (and I am sure they are being) made to get the ATC folks also upto speed also. It comes down again to management and implementation along with working through the issues. On another note...I recall one famous incident involving an Air China pilot at JFK -> http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/3494984/

[genialgiant]

A commercially oriented machine, without heart or soul
Business sense

‘Small thinking has sunk in in the infrastructure at BIA’

Chairs in the international departure area are uncomfortable
— Photo: K. Bhagya Prakash

BAD PLANNING: A view of departure lounge at Bengaluru International Airport.

Reading, day in, day out of the challenges facing Bangalore’s spanking new international airport, one begins to wonder whether proximity to a few hundred information technology companies might not have rubbed off on the airport as well, afflicting it with this high tech disease: instant obsolescence.

In normal circumstances, it would seem to be a fairly bizarre situation, when a new facility like an airport which is presumably planned by experts reaches the limit of its rated capacity on the very day it opens — or so we are told by the many committees that are bending their minds to the question: How do you solve a problem like BIA? Clearly it cannot be solved so smoothly as the problem like Maria, that enthralled us in our younger days in The Sound of Music.

Having passed through the airport a day after it was opened — and about half a dozen times since then, I emboldened to share with readers, my theory of why people continue to grumble and curse when talking about what should be the pride of India’s Silicon City. The issue is not a few overflowing trash cans, or leaky toilets or aerobridges with teething problems. All that can be changed. But attitude cannot.

I am coming round to the belief that the airport was conceived and executed by small minds, who either lacked the vision of what the mature, internationally savvy passengers who patronise the airlines serving Bangalore came to expect — or just decided that the interests of their shareholders would be best served by getting away with the narrowest definition of contractual responsibilities… and cutting every corner in sight.

Here are some examples: The pre-boarding waiting areas is where passengers, especially on international flights, tend to spend most of their time in airports — up to 2 hours is common. So world over, designers provide the most comfortable seating they can. The new Terminal 5 at Heathrow has invested in a number of corners with literally “sink in” sofas in which one can cacoon oneself in comfort. Incheon, Korea; Changi Singapore, the new Hong Kong airport on Lantau island, are all examples of thoughtful seating. But at BIA, they have standardised on a particularly hard and unyielding upright chair that will have you squirming within a few minutes. There are, in my experience, only two international airports worse in this respect — Bangkok’s Suvarnabhoomi, where they have gone all metal, and Frankfurt, that has created a unique torture instrument: a rounded metal bar on which one is expected to balance one’s posterior. Is this a German thing? BIA after all is part owned by Zurich Airport and that reputed name Siemens — both bywords for efficiency and quality. BIA is a poor showcase for your brand, mein damen und herrn.

Elsewhere, small thinking has sunk in — literally — into the infrastructure. You will be hard pressed to find smaller display boards for flight information, anywhere in the world. They have made do, with standard home theatre sized LCD TV screens, which cannot be read (at least by me) without spectacles. And at that size, they are unable to display enough lines and cannot show a departure that is just an hour away. This is a disgrace by any international standards. After a hue and cry about lack of public phones, they have stuck a few portable coin operated phones among the departure gates — the type your corner grocery store keeps on the counter.

This is the IT capital of India: It would have sent a splendid signal to the world, if arriving passengers found a few computer terminals with free Internet to check their mails. You can see them in Hong Kong, and in some 20 locations in Changi, Singapore — with two at every departure gate.

One could go on and on… Bangalore has waited for over a decade for a decent airport that measured up to the splendid image that its IT industry has created for India. What it has got is a cold, commercially oriented machine, without heart or soul. It may work — just — but it will never thrill. We deserved better.

ANAND PARTHASARATHY
http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/23/stor...2353860400.htm

[genialgiant]

Originally Posted by dakshinapraja

If you look at the tortous history of BIAL, would'nt you also be doubtful?!

The real reason for the delay has nothing to do with BIAL or its 'tortuous' history. The rendering is old. The hotel is now just The Trident. It's not a Hilton. The project was delayed because the Oberois broke off their joint venture with the Hilton group after the latter entered into a partnership with DLF to set up Hilton branded hotels in India.

The hotel is coming up right in front of the terminal, after the surface car park. And thanks to it the exit road from the terminal is mud-caked and filthy all the time. Looks like no one cares for the first impressions it creates as people are leaving the airport. And, on another note, given the location of the hotel project, one wonders where the multi-level car park will come up. The surface car park certainly can't accommodate the 2000 cars that BIAL claims, at least not in its present form.

[genialgiant]

AAI says BIA is saturated

Staff Reporter

Runway to reach that stage by 2011

There are 42 bays for aircraft and the demand is for 41

A top-level AAI team submitted a status report

BANGALORE: The Airports Authority of India (AAI) has said that the peak hour traffic at international wing (terminal) of the Bengaluru International Airport (BIA) at Devanahalli near here will be saturated by 2009 while it has already reached saturation point in case of domestic wing.

It says the terminal has reached saturation point as BIA has an integrated terminal comprising domestic and international departure/arrival wings.

This finding has been given by the AAI in its “Report on Capacity Assessment and Study of BIAL”.

A team of AAI officials from its Directorate of Corporate Planning and Management Sciences (CP and MS) comprising D.P. Singh (General Manager-CP and MS), D.P. Singh (GM), Ms. Madhu Batre, Jt. GM, V. Krishnan (senior manager) and A. Pai (senior manager) had undertaken the study of BIA between June 16 and June 18.
Car parking

AAI says the car parking facility is adequate for the next five years. The commercial car parking lot has 2,000 parking slots for cars and 75 stands for coaches.

In addition, there are stands for parking 1,200 cars belonging to the staff.

The peak hour runway capacity is 32 movements (of aircraft) against the current projected demand of 25 movements per hour. The runway is likely to reach saturation point by 2011.

There are now 42 aircraft parking bays as against the current demand for 41 bays. The report says 30 more bays are under construction and once they are completed, the bays are sufficient to meet the demand for the next five years.

Import cargo section is near saturation while export and domestic cargo bays have adequate capacities. Import cargo wing should have been allocated higher area in preference to dwell time. The report says import cargo capacity is 65,300 tonnes a year, domestic 56,548, export 2,28,000 and domestic 51,507 tonnes a year.

During 2007-08, BIA handled 10.12 million passengers, of which 1.55 million were international passengers and 8.57 million domestic travellers.

The report says BIA is the fourth busiest airport in India.

It says during the last five years, Bangalore air traffic has recorded a compound annual growth rate of 33.4 per cent for international travel and 29 per cent for domestic travel.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/23/stor...2354710500.htm

[Devesh]

Originally Posted by raghussc

What if BIAL excludes pax flying out of that temporary terminal from paying UDF ?

Fine by me. However, then all passengers will clamour for flying of the temporary terminal.

If you want a truly studied perspective, I recommend you visit and read Prof Richard De Neufville. He is a well published professor at MIT. A specialist in airport terminals and systems. http://ardent.mit.edu/airports/de_Ne...rt_papers.html.

In front of him, even the best of us are "just born amateurs".

His latest paper is titled "Evolution and Development of Multi-Airport Systems: A Worldwide Perspective" http://ardent.mit.edu/airports/ASP_p...9703format.pdf

http://ardent.mit.edu/airports/ASP_p...pa%20paper.pdf

Makes very compelling reading.