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Old September 22nd, 2008, 09:44 AM   #1081
Devesh
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Originally Posted by bialterminal View Post
This is the way to go and the future of airports in Indian cities I guess. Ultimately it does not matter where the runways are (20kms or 50 kms away) because what matters is accessibility to one of the city checkin terminals and a quick train ride to the airport. This totally negates the connectivity and distance issues.
BT, please see my post http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1071.

The question that is unanwered -- is the HSRL justified regardless of economic viability ?

If the HSRL is not economically viable, who should bear the cost ? The passengers, the airport operators, or all the citizens of Bangalore ?

This is a tough choice. While my heart says HSRL, my mind says question economic viability.
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 11:18 AM   #1082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
BT, please see my post http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1071.

The question that is unanwered -- is the HSRL justified regardless of economic viability ?

If the HSRL is not economically viable, who should bear the cost ? The passengers, the airport operators, or all the citizens of Bangalore ?

This is a tough choice. While my heart says HSRL, my mind says question economic viability.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1072

And such a HSRL as in the comment 1072 - is hell of a lot better than how our public sector Railways, AI, AAI etc laundry list etc are run where there is neither self sustainability nor accountability as to how the costs are borne. And i thought the laundry list beckons far greater and urgent attention in this regard.

Last edited by mailabode; September 22nd, 2008 at 11:24 AM.
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 12:47 PM   #1083
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Devesh

What if HSRL go for ad based revenue apart from ticket sales.. like what the Vajra Volves are doing? Also HSRL stations may lease space to retailers... hmm.. also don't forget the revenue from parking space..

Also for any infrastructure project one needs to take into account the overall associated development.

I wonder why some people are just opposing any thing connected to BIAL just for the sake of it... Or... is there a larger conspiracy?

Also one more point.. its two early to make judgments on this project. Lets wait till a concrete plan is proposed
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 02:17 PM   #1084
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It is being considered under PPP right? if it is and there is a private party ready to bear the cost and take the risk, why not let them....

Even if the govt. has to provide a portion as VGF(something like 20%), it is still worth it isn't it?
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 03:25 PM   #1085
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Originally Posted by robin_a_p View Post
Devesh

What if HSRL go for ad based revenue apart from ticket sales.. like what the Vajra Volves are doing? Also HSRL stations may lease space to retailers... hmm.. also don't forget the revenue from parking space..

Also for any infrastructure project one needs to take into account the overall associated development.

I wonder why some people are just opposing any thing connected to BIAL just for the sake of it... Or... is there a larger conspiracy?

Also one more point.. its two early to make judgments on this project. Lets wait till a concrete plan is proposed
Very prudent ideas. When the truth is so simple its ironic concocted hinderances are brought in.

The very same people wouldnt have opposed if they did not want HAL to reopen i.e if BIAL had been near to city. Their agenda of reopening HAL suffers if the train line comes up (the trainline takes 3 years to come up and until then they cant use HAL and have to travel 45 km to BIAL- even by a miracle if the train line is completed tomorrow there are people who prefer only car)- in other words they wont hesitate to scuttle overall development if it suits their personal convenience- and the sad thing is they cite "overall public's inconvenience" as an excuse to further their agenda, which is far from the truth. We have umpteen projects in Bangalore/Karnataka where 'the public are being ripped off and also the project itself ending up a joke serving no purpose' - but of course they wont voice their opinion against or emphasise all that.
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 06:52 PM   #1086
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Those who question HSRL should pause and think. Bluru is on the international map and anything that happens in the city is high profile. given that the IT industry alone brings in revenue to the tune of 10B+/yr, there needs to be commensurate upgrade in infra to world class and beyond. HSRL is in the right direction. These investments must be viewed in the long term perspective. First impressions count a lot and for a foreign traveler who sees other such infra worldwide, these impressions make an impact. The net result is more investment, more confidence and more revenue, so, there you have it: the main economic reason for HSRL.

Last edited by barrykul; September 22nd, 2008 at 07:13 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 07:54 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
The question that is unanwered -- is the HSRL justified regardless of economic viability ?

If the HSRL is not economically viable, who should bear the cost ? The passengers, the airport operators, or all the citizens of Bangalore ?
Is'nt this based on PPP model, then why will all the citizens of bangalore end up paying 100% of the cost. This is not free train ride to the airport, everyone will be paying in terms of ticket price and there will be lots of other revenue avenues. And bottom line is there is no restriction that only passengers will be using this. Anyone who needs to go the the airport can use it (passengers, airport/airlines/hotel personnel, etc) . I don't see how this project is different for elevated toll expressway or such.

IMHO, if we can this done now, then its better to do it now rather than 15 years later when the cost is quadrupled.

Regarding the question about how profitable or viable this project is, lets just wait and see, if its not economiccally viable as you say, then you will not see anyone bidding for this project in next few months. Its as simple as that.

Looks like whenever there is a talk of improving BIAL, there is always a pushback.Arrg!
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 08:24 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
In my opinion, the connection to BIAL must be an extension of the metro or a mono-rail extension of metro.
The problem of extending a metro line to reach 30-40 kms destination is the commute time. This is the main reason why cities like Hong Kong, Milan, Shanghai whose airports are far away from the city opt for High speed connection instead of extending their metro.

Anyways, even if decide to extend metro to BIAL instaed of high speed, how much cost savings is that gonna make?


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Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
Just passengers alone will not justify such a huge investment.
I am not sure why you are assuming that only passengers will be using this facility. I took the malpensa express to MXP last week and almost half of the commuters were non-passengers. And if i am not wrong, people who live and work near HKG take the HKG high speed train to the airport and from there take a bus/shuttle etc. I think its just a misundersatanding that an airport express train is used only by the airport passengers.
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 09:03 PM   #1089
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Question here why to burden entire bangalore for High speed Rail link. Anybody has calculated what is the time taken reach airport if it a high speed link Vs metro rail ? If the difference is only 15-20 minutes, we can go with metro as it serves to larger population
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 10:50 PM   #1090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raichen View Post
The problem of extending a metro line to reach 30-40 kms destination is the commute time. This is the main reason why cities like Hong Kong, Milan, Shanghai whose airports are far away from the city opt for High speed connection instead of extending their metro.

Anyways, even if decide to extend metro to BIAL instaed of high speed, how much cost savings is that gonna make?




I am not sure why you are assuming that only passengers will be using this facility. I took the malpensa express to MXP last week and almost half of the commuters were non-passengers. And if i am not wrong, people who live and work near HKG take the HKG high speed train to the airport and from there take a bus/shuttle etc. I think its just a misundersatanding that an airport express train is used only by the airport passengers(1).
(1)All it needs is a small station outside the airport apart from the airport station.

Why HSRL ?. The problem of extending the metro to airport is- the metro maynot be as clean and sophisticated as the high speed train. The idea is to sway all people including those going by cars into using the train. A sophisticated passenger (a lot of them actually are) wouldnt like to use the train if its as bad as the normal metro/public transport which he usually prefers not to use(bad it is atleast for now). I guess the charges for the metro will be much lower than whats planned for the HSRL and so the quality. If the HSRL can generate enough revenue and if the charges are nominal i dont see what the issue really is!!.

Like someone said earlier ADs etc can augment the revenue. Plus how about having live TV programs in the train and airing sponsoring companies's ADs on the TV just like cable television companies do?- this could generate good revenue for the train operator. Just a thought.

They could a few higher priced first class cabins in one of the compartments.

There could be a small pantry area in the train (which a metro normally doesnt have).

Companies at the airport could pay their employees a travel allowance instead of ferrying them by company transport - maybe a pass at a reduced rate could be worked out for them. If not they can continue their current arrangement. Employees can use the existing rail line to Devanahalli and be ferried from there to the airport by company transport/public transport. The existing rail lines can be extended in the future to the airport for those who cant afford the HSRL(mainly employees). Options are many- only, a few people refuse to see all that.

Last edited by mailabode; September 23rd, 2008 at 07:14 AM.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 12:38 AM   #1091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nag123 View Post
Question here why to burden entire bangalore for High speed Rail link. Anybody has calculated what is the time taken reach airport if it a high speed link Vs metro rail ? If the difference is only 15-20 minutes, we can go with metro as it serves to larger population
Typically a metro makes numerous intermitent stops, which also means you have to build station facilities at all these stops. So its not just about the commute time but also about the cost of building additional station facilities.

If we want the metro to provide non-stop service to BIAL, then there is no technical difference between a metro and a high speed train (depending upon the technology used). If this high speed link is awarded to namma metro, then we can call it a metro line. If its operated by another company, then they probably will call it BIAL airport express or something.

In theory a High speed airport link connects city-center to the airport non-stop with on-board passenger amenities in mind, whereas a metro will do the same with 10 additional stops using non-passenger friendly train cars. Its debatable whether metro or HSRL is the best option to BIAL, but I doubt extending the metro is going to be any cheaper than HSRL as some here have presumed.

Last edited by Raichen; September 23rd, 2008 at 12:48 AM.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 04:53 AM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raichen View Post
The problem of extending a metro line to reach 30-40 kms destination is the commute time. This is the main reason why cities like Hong Kong, Milan, Shanghai whose airports are far away from the city opt for High speed connection instead of extending their metro.
My question was more from a standpoint of understanding and protecting public interest. With many of the PPP projects, including BIAL, being questioned, and then debate about why the questions not raised earlier, I am only raising the awareness. As I said, my heart says yes to HSRL, but mind says, check out all the aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raichen View Post
I am not sure why you are assuming that only passengers will be using this facility. I think its just a misundersatanding that an airport express train is used only by the airport passengers.
In fact, if you see, I am with you. The HSRL should also be made available for the employees of the airport and those who will work at "airport city".

The one weakness in government planning is a lack of coordination and integration. Each project seems to be encapsulated and insulated from each other. Transport, of any form, requires multi-modal integration.

However, a point to point link does not make sense for a employee transport, where a proper connection to city wide network is needed. Just one interconnect to the metro (that too with a 200+ meter walk Minsk Square to BRV theatre) is inadequate. To the best of my knowledge no interconnect is planned near Hebbal. Also 200 x 2 = Rs 400 a day will translate to over Rs 8000 per month. How many employees will accept such high numbers.

The same KSIIDC is tendering for the Devanahalli Business Park. Will the HSRL cater to DBP and its employees ?

Just some questions to ponder.
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Last edited by Devesh; September 23rd, 2008 at 05:23 AM.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 06:36 AM   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nag123 View Post
Question here why to burden entire bangalore for High speed Rail link. Anybody has calculated what is the time taken reach airport if it a high speed link Vs metro rail ? If the difference is only 15-20 minutes, we can go with metro as it serves to larger population
This adds to the equation. The HSRL starts from BRV. The entire MG Road, Queens Road, Cubbon Road complex is already overloaded. Add to it, 50,000 trips per day, and it will be a significant challenge.

If a person has to spend more than 30 minutes getting to the start point i.e. BRV, then the time equation begins to tilt away from HSRL.

The challenge for HSRL will be to effectively integrate with other modes of public transport to make it a success.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 07:39 AM   #1094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
This adds to the equation. The HSRL starts from BRV. The entire MG Road, Queens Road, Cubbon Road complex is already overloaded. Add to it, 50,000 trips per day, and it will be a significant challenge.

If a person has to spend more than 30 minutes getting to the start point i.e. BRV, then the time equation begins to tilt away from HSRL.

The challenge for HSRL will be to effectively integrate with other modes of public transport to make it a success.
I am sure there is enough time to plan traffic in and around BRV grounds area. This is assuming a lot of people will arrive at BRV termnus by road transport. An integrated network of bridges in the city(special emphasis on the BRV area here) can be planned to handle traffic for the next 50 years.

Others can be connected to the HSRL through metro. A study of the London tube network and how they connect 'from anywhere to the airport' or 'from anywhere to a dedicated airport traine line's city terminus' - would be useful.

As for getting caught in a traffic jam - it will happen even if one was travelling to HAL. This is another incentive to use the metro (instead of road) for the short journey to the HSRL's BRV station.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 10:37 PM   #1095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
In fact, if you see, I am with you. The HSRL should also be made available for the employees of the airport and those who will work at "airport city".
I don't think any operator in their right mind will restrict this train service to passengers with boarding passes only.

Has all the land acquisition for this project completed, or is it still something that needs to be hashed out. I am wondering if this project will also end up in the same situation as the BMIC project
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Old September 24th, 2008, 06:24 AM   #1096
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Originally Posted by mailabode View Post
I am sure there is enough time to plan traffic in and around BRV grounds area. This is assuming a lot of people will arrive at BRV termnus by road transport. An integrated network of bridges in the city(special emphasis on the BRV area here) can be planned to handle traffic for the next 50 years.

Others can be connected to the HSRL through metro. A study of the London tube network and how they connect 'from anywhere to the airport' or 'from anywhere to a dedicated airport traine line's city terminus' - would be useful.

As for getting caught in a traffic jam - it will happen even if one was travelling to HAL. This is another incentive to use the metro (instead of road) for the short journey to the HSRL's BRV station.
I work in a building on MG road, and I get to see the traffic and the metro progress. I suspect there is too much traffic at this stage.

BRV grounds is quite big, but for it to handle Metro/HSRL/Buses/Cars will be a huge challenge.

The integrated bridges again will be a challenge. As of now my guess is that the metro terminal was to have just one bridge from the opposite end of the road (close to Barton centre, i believe).

The airport itself is meant for the next 25 years. Mr Brunner has admitted that B'lore will need two airports after that time. Unless BIAL has plans to come with the third runway (or HAL reopens), I doubt if it will sustain for 50 years.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 09:04 AM   #1097
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Metro stations

I do not know if this is the right forum to discuss Namma Metro, but I was most disappointed reading the news paper today the the fancy stations are going to become drab boxes. Also not clear if the passenger conveniences like lifts and escalators are being removed.

An elevated metro line with drab boxes for railway stations, please.......... we need to fight this nonsense.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 10:04 AM   #1098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devesh View Post
I do not know if this is the right forum to discuss Namma Metro, but I was most disappointed reading the news paper today the the fancy stations are going to become drab boxes. Also not clear if the passenger conveniences like lifts and escalators are being removed.

An elevated metro line with drab boxes for railway stations, please.......... we need to fight this nonsense.
Devesh i sent you a private message regarding this a few weeks back...please check your ssc inbox...No bangaloreans other than rkramesh tried to help so i just gave up.

Here is the Namma Metro Thread

One last thing...dont delay the first phase at any cost by forcing them to redesign...Bangalore needs to remain competitive in attracting investments.This is far more important than great looking metro stations.I think they have already floated tenders for the construction of those stations so it might even be a little late for that.

I think its best not to meddle with their affairs as bangalore suffers.Lets try and get them to implement the great looking stations in Phase 2(deja vu anyone?)

Last edited by 2Paise; September 25th, 2008 at 10:11 AM.
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Old September 25th, 2008, 10:21 AM   #1099
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Task cut out for BIAL House panel

Quote:

Express New Service 25 Sep 2008 09:47:00 AM IST BANGALORE:

Has Bengaluru International Airport Limited (BIAL) fully utilised the 4,000 acres allotted to it? Can the excess land, if any, be withdrawn? Why did the airport project cost shoot up from Rs 1,350 crore to Rs 2,700 crore? These are some of the posers which the 21-member House Committee have for BIAL and will seek answers for over the next three months.

Full article/Source

Lets see what our bunch of "experts" come out with !! Is it a gimmick to make some money ??
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Old September 25th, 2008, 06:25 PM   #1100
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One last thing...dont delay the first phase at any cost by forcing them to redesign...
2P, if you look at it, the original designs are being scrapped and the drab boxes are the re-design. So Bangalore stands to benefit.

Admittedly 50Cr potential savings is a good chunk of change, but in the over 6000Cr cost of the metro, it is 0.5%.

Let me try and get to Mr. Sivasailam and put forth our thoughts. Overhead stations should look good. The original designs should be retained.
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