The TIF Debate

[b4mmy]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

b4mmy - DfT have said no public money can go on the TC line, even if we wanted to we couldn't.

....so is Roger Jones talking out of his pr company's arse?

[Metrolink]

No - he wants to build with private money, we cannot use public money - i.e. the congestion money.

(why is this so hard - do people not read what people say???)

[Toadboy]

Couldn't the congestion money be private or at least semi private to get around red tape?

Regardless, if the people of Manchester fall for this the more fool them, start contacting your councillors and local authorities and encourage a proper open debate - and then vote against it anyway.

[kids]

I've got a question, why is my local road into manchester, the a580 a main route congestion thing, whilst the nearby m602 - which up to eccles is served by tram - not. I'd have no other way to get into town other than the extorsionate first bus services if this went ahead.

[b4mmy]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

No - he wants to build with private money, we cannot use public money - i.e. the congestion money.

(why is this so hard - do people not read what people say???)

oh yep, sorry... just read it again... sorry

[b4mmy]

Originally Posted by Kids in the riot

I've got a question, why is my local road into manchester, the a580 a main route congestion thing, whilst the nearby m60 - which up to eccles is served by tram - not. I'd have no other way to get into town other than the extorsionate first bus services if this went ahead.

yeah, and I HAVE to use the A56 to get on the M56... which I do use a lot

[URBANISER]

"There may be trouble ahead!!"

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

No - he wants to build with private money, we cannot use public money - i.e. the congestion money.

(why is this so hard - do people not read what people say???)

Ye but what congestion money? because its not going to make anything.

[jrb]

Cap bus fares. Cap tram fares. Provide a reliable public transport service.

Guaranteed public support for road charging.

[kids]

It costs £2.20 to get from the height salford to manchester. That's 1.8 miles...each way

[Metrolink]

Ye but what congestion money? because its not going to make anything.

Fucking hell - have you actually read what is being proposed???

Where, please show me, does it say that the money raised from congestion charging will be used to pay for any public transport improvements???????????????????

Read up about TiF, then feel free to comment.

God knows how politicians cope - people read half a story and suddenly think they are experts on the subject.

instead of writting ignorant responses to the proposals why do you find exactly what is being proposed, find out exactly what the alternatives are and find out how likely each scenario actually is, what what the implications of each scenario is.

At present people have half heard something, gone into shock and haven't bother actually trying to understand what is going on here.

You laughably talk in the Metrolink thread about how the Metrolink would be underground in the city centre, hinting that the PTE would do that if they had half a clue about anything.

Have you actually thought why it is how it is???

Have you actually realised that the only way the Metrolink could go underground is if we get a significant TiF payout - and how is the only way we're going to get that???

Wake up, stop walking around in ignorance, and open your eyes to what the real options are, not what they are on planet dream world.

[Farsight]

Roger Jones and a whole pile of John Prescotts are the ones living on planet dreamworld, Metrolink. They'll be swanning around in the back of a Merc on £200,000 a year while everybody else is taxed to economic death. It's time the people of Greater Manchester told this government to fuck off and seized control of their own taxes and transport destiny. Don't start the revolution without me!

[Metrolink]

A very well argued point there Farsight.

Looking at all the realistic options available, giving a good critic of each of them.

I congratulate you on your persuasive powers.

[Farsight]

But that's the truth of it Metrolink. It's the same with education. Those more-equal pigs impose their dogma on us but not themselves. They've got their fat cat pensions, ours are fucked. They've got the freebie second homes. My interest rates go up because of the very inflation this government permits via rail fares, utility bills et cetera. Healthcare trusts are laying off nurses and imposing minimum waiting times whilst hiring risk managers and similar drones. The Home Office are a law unto themselves. Aw they're just a bunch of hypocritices stealing money for featherbedded bureacracy and fiddling while Rome burns. And for the sake of balance, that David Cameron is a total silver-spoon twat.

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

Isaac - I get very tired answering your questions.

I strongly suggest you pay a visit to one of the many public consultations that the PTE put on every month, ask them the questions.


If you believe that no one in the PTE has got a clue what they are doing fair enough, if you think you can do better why not apply for the roll of chairman - about £200k / year - you obviously think you could do a better job, why not apply?

In a way I'd love this not to happen, places like Brum and other cities to go ahead with it, get massive transport improvements (maybe an underground ???) and then when we get it imposed on us to see all your reaction.

www.gmpta.gov.uk and www.gmpte.com for all stuff you need to understand Manchester transport and where the congestion is - if you cannot be arsed reading it, you'll understand I cannot be arsed answering your illinformed questions.

P.S. If the majority of the population don't want this - I hope we don't get it - I also hope they don't complain when it's forced on us.

They are the sort of questions that will be asked. And you haven't answered them. If you could answer them you would, you are quick to answer most questions as can be illustrated by this thread.

On this occasion you are as much in the dark as everyone else and I suspect you know that it will be a flat rate for everyone regardless of direction or destination.

[Metrolink]

No Isaac, I could answer them, it's just that as soon as I do, you'll be asking some more totally mundane ill thought out tripe.

As such I'm quite happy for you, or anyone else to have whatever views they have - no one ever changes their veiws after reading a post on a forum like this anyway.

At the end of the day this may go ahead it may not go ahead, whatever you (someone 200miles away) or I (sat in Wythenshawe) think is rather irrelevant.

Continue to live in your little deluded world where everyone at the PTE are a bunch of imbeciles who have not got a clue what they are talking about - it makes not difference to me, and it makes no difference to them.

Have fun in you delusional world.

I'm not here to keep you entertained and educated.

[Isaac Newell]

How will the Greater Manchester congestion charging scheme work ?

On BBC News 24 the Leader of Manchester City council stated that it would be cheaper to run than London's scheme and I wondered how that could be seeing as it covered a much greater area.

Will it be a flat fee with a sticker on your car, rather like Ken Livingstone's lorry charging scheme in the 80's, monitored by traffic wardenss ? (extremely cheap to run)

Will there be cameras picking up registration numbers along the corridors, all the way from Bolton to Manchester for example, (extremely expensive, much larger than London's tiny central zonebut tried and successfully operating at present)

Will it be GPS with cars needing a box and a satellite tracking their every move with some routes being more expensive than others. (extremely expensive, relatively untried technology, potential for cock up)

All we seem to have is a nice map, the same logo as the London scheme, and a very vague explanation of how cars travelling to the centre on congested corridors will pay more. More than whom ?

If the PTA were honest and explained that the government have told them to implement any kind of congestion scheme they can think of to free up funding then I would have respect for them, but they're not, they are saying the roads into central Manchester are congested but nobody is actually travelling to central Manchester along these roads so we can't introduce a specific zone so instead everyone who drives in Greater Manchester will pay.

You don't know Metrolink and I know you don't know, because they don't know.

[The Longford]

Originally Posted by b4mmy

yeah, and I HAVE to use the A56 to get on the M56... which I do use a lot

Originally Posted by Kids in the riot

I've got a question, why is my local road into manchester, the a580 a main route congestion thing, whilst the nearby m602 - which up to eccles is served by tram - not. I'd have no other way to get into town other than the extorsionate first bus services if this went ahead.

I think that has got to do with who 'owns' and 'operates' the roads. It quite complicated but i think motorways come under Highways Agency so therefore any tolling would be done by central government whilst local roads are the responsibility of the council and they therefore able to toll them.
I think.

Anyway kidda - drop down Langworthy Road pick up Liverpool Street and get in that way. Trouble is every other fucker will have the same idea - thats why i think this plan is flawed and will only cause congestion on minor roads.

[Metrolink]

no, you are right, they haven't got a clue.

£2m just to produce a map hey?

[Biosonic]

It is true that these are just testing proposals rather than imposition of charges, and it is therefore important that the West Midlands pilots a different system to see which is better, but it is the slippery slope.

I note there is no mention of Greater London.