The TIF Debate

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

no, you are right, they haven't got a clue.

£2m just to produce a map hey?

How will it operate then, what systems will they use ?

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

Fucking hell - have you actually read what is being proposed???

Where, please show me, does it say that the money raised from congestion charging will be used to pay for any public transport improvements???????????????????

Read up about TiF, then feel free to comment.

God knows how politicians cope - people read half a story and suddenly think they are experts on the subject.

instead of writting ignorant responses to the proposals why do you find exactly what is being proposed, find out exactly what the alternatives are and find out how likely each scenario actually is, what what the implications of each scenario is.

At present people have half heard something, gone into shock and haven't bother actually trying to understand what is going on here.

You laughably talk in the Metrolink thread about how the Metrolink would be underground in the city centre, hinting that the PTE would do that if they had half a clue about anything.

Have you actually thought why it is how it is???

Have you actually realised that the only way the Metrolink could go underground is if we get a significant TiF payout - and how is the only way we're going to get that???

Wake up, stop walking around in ignorance, and open your eyes to what the real options are, not what they are on planet dream world.

You just said that the trafford centre line will be built with Private money and then mentioned congestion money. Well if we get some of the £1 billion going because we have the C-Charge, that's not private. I am very sure that money will be used to finish the others off and send it to possibly Stockport etc if there's enough. So I guessed, you think the Trafford Center line will be built with money that the C-Charge creates. Am I wrong? The other thing is Londons C-Charge doesn't make much because they keep losing money because its working and cutting traffic which means less money, so you have to stick the price up just to keep it running. Our cannot possibly make as much cash as theirs so we'll have to find some other money to send it the Trafford Centre.

I was talking about the underground met in a Laughable sense because we are in England and it will never happen. While in loads of the other cities through out the world they are investing massively in undergrounds and high speed rail systems. We are one of the biggest cities in the UK and we have to fight and now we have to start charging road users stupid amounts of money so we can get afew £100 Million to finish off afew tram lines. They could have just given us the money instead about 10 years ago or not gone to war twice.

[Metrolink]

I'm not here to keep you entertained and educated.

www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news
www.gmpte.com
www.gmpta.gov.uk
http://www.agma.gov.uk
www.dft.gov.uk


If you don't find the information you've been asking for I'm sure if you email the media office or the contact us at either the PTE or PTA they'll be quite happy to provide further information.

[URBANISER]

I think you have to accept Metro that people interpret on the basis of what information has so far been released. I much appreciate you patience in trying to explain your support for somthing you obviously feel passionate about. The fact that this interpetation has fueled such a hostile reaction suggest's either the proposal is being misinterperated by the majority or I have to say more likely, people just do not like it based on what they see at this moment in time and are apprehensive. This would suggest an ill informed press release! or would it?

[Metrolink]

Andy -

Am I wrong?

Yes

[nerd]

Originally Posted by Isaac Newell

How will the Greater Manchester congestion charging scheme work ?

On BBC News 24 the Leader of Manchester City council stated that it would be cheaper to run than London's scheme and I wondered how that could be seeing as it covered a much greater area.

Will it be a flat fee with a sticker on your car, rather like Ken Livingstone's lorry charging scheme in the 80's, monitored by traffic wardenss ? (extremely cheap to run)

Will there be cameras picking up registration numbers along the corridors, all the way from Bolton to Manchester for example, (extremely expensive, much larger than London's tiny central zonebut tried and successfully operating at present)

Will it be GPS with cars needing a box and a satellite tracking their every move with some routes being more expensive than others. (extremely expensive, relatively untried technology, potential for cock up)

All we seem to have is a nice map, the same logo as the London scheme, and a very vague explanation of how cars travelling to the centre on congested corridors will pay more. More than whom ?

If the PTA were honest and explained that the government have told them to implement any kind of congestion scheme they can think of to free up funding then I would have respect for them, but they're not, they are saying the roads into central Manchester are congested but nobody is actually travelling to central Manchester along these roads so we can't introduce a specific zone so instead everyone who drives in Greater Manchester will pay.

You don't know Metrolink and I know you don't know, because they don't know.

not much has been said for definite - but we have the map and some details Isaac.

-charges will vary by corridor and by time of day

- each time you cross a corridor boundary, or drive along a red route, you potentially incur an extra charge (i.e. the charge for the corridor you are entering). At the end of each day you will be deducted the two highest charges you have incurred.

- most of the charging will initially be tag and beacon - like the French motorways. Every vehicle registered in Greater Manchester will have to carry a RFID tag on their windscreen and pre-pay into a tag account. As you pass a beacon, the relevent sum for that corridor and time of day will be deducted from your account.

- If your journey does not pass a beacon, you incur no charge.

- a few vehicles will be equipped with satellite transponders to test the technology. As and when the GPS technology becomes affordable and proven, the whole system (and indeed the whole of England) will switch to satellite-based road charging.

- number-plate recognition cameras will be used to check for free-loaders, but will not be the general charging mechanism.

- A full tag-and beacon system would require beacons at each crossing point of the corridor boundaries (i.e. the dotted lines on the map), plus at intervals along the red routes, and at all entrances and exits to the motorway system. There seems to be some doubt over whether the PTE reckon to be able to afford this; they may be evaluating whether a workable system could function with active beacons only at selected points; plus some mobile beacons and dummies.

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news
www.gmpte.com
www.gmpta.gov.uk
http://www.agma.gov.uk
www.dft.gov.uk


If you don't find the information you've been asking for I'm sure if you email the media office or the contact us at either the PTE or PTA they'll be quite happy to provide further information.

That's because you don't know. And the reason you don't know is because that information is not available. Not your fault, not blaming you as you are often keen to correct all posters. In this case you are a little more reticent which is understanddable when you don't have the answer to hand.

[The Longford]

What about people just coming into Manchester from elsewhere just for the day for example?

[Metrolink]

urban - no problem with that.

If it doesn't happen then fair enough, what bores me senseless though are people being told something, then 5mins later asking exactly the same thing again.

How many times has the situation with the TC line been explained - and yet Andy still doesn't understand - I really give up.

As I say, at most 100 people come on here - out of 2.5m that's bugger all - if you don't like it and we get it well tough shit basically, if we don't get it and we don't get any public transport improvements well tough shit on me I suppose.

In the end, I'm not here to advocate Metrolink, charging or anything, I simply give my opinion.

I often inform people about things I come to hear about before it becomes common knowledge, however, in recent times all I get is the same people asking the same questions over and over again - fair enough, but don't get giddy if I'm not going to repeat myself for the 1000th time.

Why not start a discussion on an underground along Oxford Road - I'm sure the reasons that'll never happen haven't been aired for at least 2 weeks now.

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by nerd

not much has been said for definite - but we have the map and some details Isaac.

-charges will vary by corridor and by time of day

- each time you cross a corridor boundary, or drive along a red route, you potentially incur an extra charge (i.e. the charge for the corridor you are entering). At the end of each day you will be deducted the two highest charges you have incurred.

- most of the charging will initially be tag and beacon - like the French motorways. Every vehicle registered in Greater Manchester will have to carry a RFID tag on their windscreen and pre-pay into a tag account. As you pass a beacon, the relevent sum for that corridor and time of day will be deducted from your account.

- If your journey does not pass a beacon, you incur no charge.

- a few vehicles will be equipped with satellite transponders to test the technology. As and when the GPS technology becomes affordable and proven, the whole system (and indeed the whole of England) will switch to satellite-based road charging.

- number-plate recognition cameras will be used to check for free-loaders, but will not be the general charging mechanism.

- A full tag-and beacon system would require beacons at each crossing point of the corridor boundaries (i.e. the dotted lines on the map), plus at intervals along the red routes, and at all entrances and exits to the motorway system. There seems to be some doubt over whether the PTE reckon to be able to afford this; they may be evaluating whether a workable system could function with active beacons only at selected points; plus some mobile beacons and dummies.

Sounds very expensive... is it ?

[Metrolink]

Isaac - where do you think nerd got his information from?

Does he work for the PTE?

Is he a councillor on the PTA?

No, he simply reads what has been written and considers it and comes to a conclusion - something you seem incapable of doing.

Please explain how nerd understands this yet you don't?

[Metrolink]

Sounds very expensive... is it ?

Why don't you investigate?

Have a look at what people are saying and experiences elsewhere in the world - I presume you have access to the internet.

[majormystery]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

urban - no problem with that.

If it doesn't happen then fair enough, what bores me senseless though are people being told something, then 5mins later asking exactly the same thing again.

How many times has the situation with the TC line been explained - and yet Andy still doesn't understand - I really give up.

As I say, at most 100 people come on here - out of 2.5m that's bugger all - if you don't like it and we get it well tough shit basically, if we don't get it and we don't get any public transport improvements well tough shit on me I suppose.

In the end, I'm not here to advocate Metrolink, charging or anything, I simply give my opinion.

I often inform people about things I come to hear about before it becomes common knowledge, however, in recent times all I get is the same people asking the same questions over and over again - fair enough, but don't get giddy if I'm not going to repeat myself for the 1000th time.

Why not start a discussion on an underground along Oxford Road - I'm sure the reasons that'll never happen haven't been aired for at least 2 weeks now.

Hey Metro. I, for one, appreciate all the information you post on this site. Its obvious you are knowledgable in this subject.

Congestion charging is a big thing for this city though, and its going to be hotly debated for some time to come (you know my views on the issue). People do need to realise that not all the answer are available yet.

[Metrolink]

Indeed, not all the answers are in the public realm, but for Isaac to suggest, as he rather often does, that the PTE are just making it up as they go along and have no idea what they're doing is so far off the mark it's laughable.

[Metrolink]

People seem to be equating them not understanding / knowing what is proposed with the PTE not knowing what they are doing / planning, which clearly (for some) is not the case.

I presume all those in the dark will be attending the public consultation meetings etc that will be occuring?

[andysimo123]

Metro why didn't you say there was about £10 Billion up for grabs between every one.

You just sort of stay in a hole and keep everything to your self. Btw there's way too much Information to go through on the dft site. Am not looking at all of it I just want to know the basics.

[Metrolink]

andy - well wait for the publci consultation then.

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

andy - well wait for the publci consultation then.

Nar your alright. I'd rather do something better with my time, such as going to watch United etc etc.

[Metrolink]

you'd rather make up your mind with limited knowledge about what is being proposed.

My point exactly.

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

People seem to be equating them not understanding / knowing what is proposed with the PTE not knowing what they are doing / planning, which clearly (for some) is not the case.

I presume all those in the dark will be attending the public consultation meetings etc that will be occuring?

That's your role. Perhaps you'll have some answers by then