The TIF Debate

[Metrolink]

3rd May 2007 - local elections in Greater Manchester - why not stand if it matters so much for you - surely you cannot fail to win?

[majormystery]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

3rd May 2007 - local elections in Greater Manchester - why not stand if it matters so much for you - surely you cannot fail to win?

You're said before the PTE operates independantly of local political leaders. So how will voting at the local elections change things?

[Metrolink]

AGMA could veto this.

Today the council leaders all voted for this course of action, the PTE will be the people providing proposals etc, it will actually be the local councils that implement it, with PTE managing it.

PTE simply follow guidence ladi down by the PTE - the only reason they are looking at it is because the PTA will have asked them to, and the PTA is made up of councillors, elected by you me and everyone else in GM.

[Metrolink]

any one council voting against this and it'd fall.

[nerd]

Originally Posted by Metrolink

any one council voting against this and it'd fall.

Which is why the proposals have the form they do.

The most straightforward congestion charge for Manchester would have been a London-style flat-rate charge defined by the circuit of the M60. And it would probably have worked in practice.

But politically impossible, as Stockport would have been oposed; their fair town being cut in two.

This zonal system allows the charges to be introduced corridor by corridor, in parallel with infrasturucture improvements - as the Metrolink goes to Oldham, Rochdale, Wythenshawe, Didsbury: so their respective charging corridors can be activated. The people who are not yet benefitting improvements dont appear to be having to pay an extra charge.

Which is also why funding Metrolink is a better incentive politically - improved bus services would have a lower profile, would not have the same degree of apparent permanence, and would be less attractive to car owners.

So I would not expect that the Bolton and Stockport corridors will be in the first phase of charge implementation - not until the Metrolilnk or equivalent starts to come their way (or until the national system kicks in, which is likely to be sooner).

Manchester did come quite close to having an underground in the 1970s (the PicVic). The proposals were similar in many respects to the contemporary Liverpool system - and in retrospect would have suffered from similar difficulties. But the key reason why the Heath Government chose Liverpool over Manchester, was that Stockport was then absolutely opposed. This time they seem to be on board.

[ihategrammar]

Jesus. I knew this announcement would create a strong reaction but this is ridiculous.

I have to say that I think people are being a little harsh on Metro. I totally understand why people are up in arms about this, but if you actually sit down and look at the facts you realise that:

a) AGMA have said that public transport will have to be improved in affected areas or the whole deal's off.
b) If the TIF bid fails, we won't be getting congestion charging until the rest of the country does anyway.

Now that, to me, does not seem to be an outrageous proposition. True, it will be an uphill struggle to make sure that reliable public transport is in place in all areas before the scheme goes live but it is by no means impossible. People may slag off Metrolink now but just think how it changed the perception of public transport in the areas it serves. It offered a step change in the quality of public transport, and attracted a huge amount of people who would ordinarily have driven to work.

It is very easy today, to look around and slate the state of public transport in Greater Manchester, without realising that a lot of the problems have relatively simple solutions.

Overcrowded trams - More are on order

Overcrowded trains - New trains to be ordered if the TIF bid successful

Late buses - it's you blocking the road in your car making it late, mate. In areas where GMPTE have entered into a partnership with the bus companies and thrown down a load of bus lanes the service is generally pretty reliable, and the quality of the buses is good, akin to the new ones they use in London. We'd be getting more of this if the TIF bid is successful, and the improved routes would be in operation before charging starts.

Confusing bus fares - the government has already announced that buses are going to be regulated again. Not, perhaps, to the level of London, but enough to prevent Wilmslow Road being the free for all that it has been for the past twenty years. Again, the powers that we have will be all the greater if we pull off the TIF bid and congestion charging.

I suppose what I'm saying is that a lot of people are looking at what Manchester has now and, based on that, are saying that congestion charging in Manchester cannot work. They may be right. I, however, think that people should look at exactly what Manchester would be getting in return. It's not just about Metrolink - it's about a package of measures that would leave public transport in Greater Manchester unrecogniseable from the hit and miss affair that it is now. Those who argue that congestion charging will harm the local economy should be mindful of the fact that even the Chamber of Commerce have said that they will support it if public transport is improved first - which it will be.

We can either try to come up with a system that will work for us, and which will unlock a vast amount of money for Greater Manchester, or we can watch the money go to Birmingham and bod around until congestion charging is imposed anyway, with none of the benefits that the TIF money would have brought. It's not an easy decision, as no-one really knows whether to go with the devil they know, or to make a leap and start charging. I just wish people would open their minds a little and read all the details before jumping to conclusions either way.

Just a thought...

[andysimo123]

I just worked out I can get from the very far end of Altrincham to about 300 meters from the Motorway without getting charged. Going Town is abit harder because you get charged from the edge of Sale to where the Arndale is and then I could get from Stretford Arndale to town without touching this new congestion charge. That's based only on the fact you'll be charged while driving on the A56. Also most of the Roads used are main roads and not little streets.

[The Longford]

[andysimo123]

"Sir we seem to have a vehicle will no number plate or sateliting tracking!"

"Pull him over then!"

"errrr its a tank!"

[Isaac Newell]

Originally Posted by ihategrammar

Jesus. I knew this announcement would create a strong reaction but this is ridiculous.

I have to say that I think people are being a little harsh on Metro. I totally understand why people are up in arms about this, but if you actually sit down and look at the facts you realise that:

a) AGMA have said that public transport will have to be improved in affected areas or the whole deal's off.
b) If the TIF bid fails, we won't be getting congestion charging until the rest of the country does anyway.

Now that, to me, does not seem to be an outrageous proposition. True, it will be an uphill struggle to make sure that reliable public transport is in place in all areas before the scheme goes live but it is by no means impossible. People may slag off Metrolink now but just think how it changed the perception of public transport in the areas it serves. It offered a step change in the quality of public transport, and attracted a huge amount of people who would ordinarily have driven to work.

It is very easy today, to look around and slate the state of public transport in Greater Manchester, without realising that a lot of the problems have relatively simple solutions.

Overcrowded trams - More are on order

Overcrowded trains - New trains to be ordered if the TIF bid successful

Late buses - it's you blocking the road in your car making it late, mate. In areas where GMPTE have entered into a partnership with the bus companies and thrown down a load of bus lanes the service is generally pretty reliable, and the quality of the buses is good, akin to the new ones they use in London. We'd be getting more of this if the TIF bid is successful, and the improved routes would be in operation before charging starts.

Confusing bus fares - the government has already announced that buses are going to be regulated again. Not, perhaps, to the level of London, but enough to prevent Wilmslow Road being the free for all that it has been for the past twenty years. Again, the powers that we have will be all the greater if we pull off the TIF bid and congestion charging.

I suppose what I'm saying is that a lot of people are looking at what Manchester has now and, based on that, are saying that congestion charging in Manchester cannot work. They may be right. I, however, think that people should look at exactly what Manchester would be getting in return. It's not just about Metrolink - it's about a package of measures that would leave public transport in Greater Manchester unrecogniseable from the hit and miss affair that it is now. Those who argue that congestion charging will harm the local economy should be mindful of the fact that even the Chamber of Commerce have said that they will support it if public transport is improved first - which it will be.

We can either try to come up with a system that will work for us, and which will unlock a vast amount of money for Greater Manchester, or we can watch the money go to Birmingham and bod around until congestion charging is imposed anyway, with none of the benefits that the TIF money would have brought. It's not an easy decision, as no-one really knows whether to go with the devil they know, or to make a leap and start charging. I just wish people would open their minds a little and read all the details before jumping to conclusions either way.

Just a thought...

here's a thought, overcrowded trains, just order new ones, here's another one, unregulated buses, re-regulate them.

the private companies that design and build expensive road pricing schemes have greater muscle within government than local authorities.

[The Longford]

Originally Posted by Isaac Newell

here's a thought, overcrowded trains, just order new ones, here's another one, unregulated buses, re-regulate them.

Thats crazy talk!

[jrb]

If I've missed the bus let me know.

From todays MEN.

C-Charge: The long road begins


COUNCIL leaders today got Greater Manchester on the path to congestion charging.

The Association of Greater Manchester Authorities Executive - made up of the 10 leaders and fire, police and passenger transport authorities, voted unanimously to order officials to draw up detailed plans to charge drivers to travel on 15 corridors into Manchester city centre.

If they approve the final details before the summer, the plans will go to the government in July to form a bid for money from the Transport Innovation Fund in an attempt to pay for Metrolink extensions and other public transport improvements.

They took the decision after considering a report which warned about "economic decline that road use in congested conditions imposes on the Greater Manchester economy".

AGMA leader Lord Peter Smith, also leader of Wigan Council, said: "The proposals are based upon the need to get significant public transport investment if we are going to offer people an alternative. But we do need to do that with sensitivity to the way it affects the area."

City Council chief executive Sir Howard Bernstein stressed that they were not final recommendations but an attempt to agree "key principles to provide a platform for further development".

Salford leader Councillor John Merry demanded assurances that the scheme would prevent drivers using unsuitable roads parallel to the corridors to avoid charges. He also demanded that deprived communities should be protected from the charges.

Complaint

Stockport leader Councillor Brian Millard, complained that the press had been briefed this week before the meeting.

But City Council leader Sir Richard Leese praised the MEN's coverage as "remarkably accurate" and said: "We have to remain transparent about what is a work in progress."

GMPTA chairman Councillor Roger Jones, said: "This is about bringing £1,000million into this conurbation and we can't do it unless we win a bidding process. We have got rival bids - particularly in Birmingham - and the issue is how we are going to get this bid to the government and win it.

"We accept that public transport is not good enough in Greater Manchester. You have got to give people a decent alternative to the car and it is going to take some doing."

He added that even after improvements to trams and trains, six out of 10 people would still depend on buses and complained that his Authority had no control over private operators.

But Sir Richard stressed: "Our conditions for introducing this are not mix and match. We need them all meeting and if we do not get adequate control over public transport, it doesn't happen. It's as simple as that."

After the decision Councillor Jones said he was delighted with the unanimous vote and accepted the need to improve public transport before introducing the charges.

[b4mmy]

hey! Will taxis, or couriers be exempt? I was just thinking that it might be cheaper to apply for a taxi licence than pay congestion charges... and then I could make a few bob on my way home at the weekend.... not a bad idea!

If anyone is interested I could start say a courier company, you could like, 'work' for this new company, and I could stick you on the list of 'employees' and... well its a thought.

Seriously though, are there any exemptions in the charges in London?

[The Longford]

Originally Posted by b4mmy

hey! Will taxis, or couriers be exempt? I was just thinking that it might be cheaper to apply for a taxi licence than pay congestion charges... and then I could make a few bob on my way home at the weekend.... not a bad idea!

If anyone is interested I could start say a courier company, you could like, 'work' for this new company, and I could stick you on the list of 'employees' and... well its a thought.

Seriously though, are there any exemptions in the charges in London?

Disabled people, or institutions for disabled people, who hold a Blue Badge (formerly known as Orange Badge)
Residents living within the congestion charging zone
(Do not use this form if you are renewing your Residents discount as you will be sent a renewal form to complete. If you have lost your renewal form please call 0845 900 1234)
Drivers of alternative fuel vehicles
Motortricycles 1 metre or less in width & 2 metres or less in length
Guidance Notes
Map to vehicle assessment centre
Vehicles with 9 or more seats
(Do not use this form if you are renewing your 9 Seat discount as you will be sent a renewal form to complete. If you have lost your renewal form please call 0845 900 1234)

Drivers of roadside recovery vehicles
Accredited breakdown organisations
Drivers of electrically propelled vehicles


Buy a minibus!

[jrb]

Drivers of electrically propelled vehicles

[b4mmy]

....looks like an electric car is the way to go... so what happens when loads of people buy them...?

http://www.evuk.co.uk/

[The Longford]

Fuck dat shit.
I'm going to get a saab turbo diesel and run it on biodiesel or even better one these badboys.

[nerd]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

I just worked out I can get from the very far end of Altrincham to about 300 meters from the Motorway without getting charged. Going Town is abit harder because you get charged from the edge of Sale to where the Arndale is and then I could get from Stretford Arndale to town without touching this new congestion charge. That's based only on the fact you'll be charged while driving on the A56. Also most of the Roads used are main roads and not little streets.

town is a "corridor" of its own.

so actually driving to town will cost you a charge each way.

better to park and ride on the Metrolink

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by nerd

town is a "corridor" of its own.

so actually driving to town will cost you a charge each way.

better to park and ride on the Metrolink

better to just move to Leeds or Sheffield.

[Metrolink]

better to just move to Leeds or Sheffield.

and when they start charging are you planning on moving abroad?