daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy (aug.2, 2013) | DMCA policy | flipboard magazine

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > North American Skyscrapers Forum > Metropolis & States > Toronto > Transit & Infrastructure



View Poll Results: Which Streetcar?
Bombardier's Outlook 80 85.11%
Siemens Combino 14 14.89%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 6th, 2008, 08:00 PM   #41
kettal
city
 
kettal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,078
Likes (Received): 0

TTC aims to get light-rail project back on track

'We will likely be able to have a contract later this year'

Allison Hanes, National Post Published: Wednesday, August 06, 2008

TTC chairman Adam Giambrone doesn't expect the awarding of a streetcar contract to be delayed more than "a couple of months."

The TTC has begun new negotiations with three streetcar manufacturers and expects to get its derailed $1.2-billion light-rail project quickly back on track, the transit commission's chairman said yesterday.

The open proposals process collapsed last month over problems with front-runner Bombardier's bid, but Councillor Adam Giambrone (Davenport), who chairs the TTC, doesn't expect the awarding of a contract to be delayed more than "a couple of months."

Mr. Giambrone said discussions are already taking place between the TTC and three light-rail manufacturers: Montreal-based Bombardier, which had its bid rejected over fears its trains would derail during tight-radius turns on Toronto's narrow old tracks; as well as German company Siemens and French multinational Alstom, neither of which submitted proposals for the $1.2-billion project.

"We will be presenting our way forward at the Aug. 27 commission meeting, at which point we will make a recommendation to have negotiations over the next couple of months with one of the three, two of the three, all of the three," Mr. Giambrone said. "And then we will likely be able to have a contract later this year."

That's not much different from the timeline originally prescribed by the scrapped proposals process, he added.

But some have expressed concern that the stalling of the submissions will delay the delivery of the 204 low-rise streetcars that are supposed to be rolled out by 2012.

Councillor Karen Stintz (Eglinton Lawrence) has written letters insisting a light needs to be shone on what went wrong with Bombardier's bid that caused the process to fall apart. She said there needs to be an understanding of what went wrong with the proposals process before it can proceed.

But Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), a member of the TTC board, said he thinks such criticism is a "red herring."

"It seems to me that the process is working and has worked really well," Mr. Thompson said, adding that it is better to find out in the early stages if there are risks to public safety because of derailment.

Likewise, it is better to take a bit longer and get the design specifications right, which is why he said he is not overly concerned that the awarding of the contract will be unduly delayed.

"As long as we get it right within a suitable timeframe," he said. "I think that we ought to afford the staff the time to do it right as opposed to hurry it along.

"It's unfortunate that we now have to go back to some degree, though not all the way back to the drawing board."

The TTC needs to purchase two versions of the same model streetcar: one standard model that will be used on new light-rail lines and another modified version that can navigate the existing track system.

Mr. Giambrone said getting the new "off-the-shelf" model is the priority because it needs to be ready to roll when the new light-rail line along Sheppard Avenue is completed.

"To be honest if there was a two-month delay, a four-month delay -- nobody wants a four-month delay -- but it's not the end of the world," he said. "These ones will continue to operate, we'll continue to maintain them. It becomes harder with each year passing by. But if it takes an additional six or seven months -- and I don't know if it will even take that long -- but if it were to, it wouldn't be the end of the world. What would be the end of the world would be if we didn't have new cars for when the Transit City lines start opening in 2012."

TTC ROAD SAFETY: BY THE NUMBERS

A Toronto Police enforcement campaign to focus attention on road safety involving TTC vehicles has resulted in thousands of tickets against motorists. Some numbers:

34 Toronto traffic deaths this year.

50 Percentage of those 34 deaths who were pedestrians.

2,790 Number of offence notices issued in 2007.

3,975 Number of offence notices issued since 2008 campaign began on July 21.

1,452 Number of tickets issued in 2008 campaign for driving in high-occupancy lanes.

1,326 Tickets for motorists making prohibited turns interfering with transit vehicles.

54 Tickets for passing streetcars while the doors were open.

185 Tickets for failing to clear intersection.

1,321 Tickets for 'no stopping,' 'no standing' and 'no parking' or 'standing in designated TTC routes.'

Source: Toronto Police
kettal no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old August 7th, 2008, 12:35 AM   #42
rbt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,619
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by kettal View Post
54 Tickets for passing streetcars while the doors were open.
I would really like to know what the fine for this one is.

IMO, it should be considered on par with the new street racing legislation -- immediate impounding of the vehicle, etc.
__________________
Toronto Skyscraper Database
rbt no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 7th, 2008, 01:05 AM   #43
Jaye101
Midtown Fella
 
Jaye101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: █♣█ Toronto
Posts: 5,345
Likes (Received): 8

I was almost killed getting on the King car at University by some crazy American. This woman had it way more close than I did, though.
Jaye101 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 7th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #44
Homer J. Simpson
Registered User
 
Homer J. Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sector 7-G
Posts: 2,496
Likes (Received): 17

Far too many people do not know how to drive with streetcars present.

I'm not free of guilt there too. I made a slight mistake and went down a streetcar ROW at 4 in the morning. Thankfully no one was around to see it.
__________________

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." --John Stuart Mill

Special thanks to Ttownfeen for giving me the author of the quote above

To quote some wise men whos names I can not remember:

"Conservative politics is like masterbation, it takes a lot of jerking things around and only pays off for those who do it."
Homer J. Simpson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 8th, 2008, 05:53 AM   #45
kettal
city
 
kettal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,078
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson View Post
Far too many people do not know how to drive with streetcars present.

I'm not free of guilt there too. I made a slight mistake and went down a streetcar ROW at 4 in the morning. Thankfully no one was around to see it.
Let me guess, the south end of Spadina Avenue?
kettal no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 8th, 2008, 04:02 PM   #46
Homer J. Simpson
Registered User
 
Homer J. Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sector 7-G
Posts: 2,496
Likes (Received): 17

^No but close. It was actually closer to the EX near the foot of Bathurst.

I would be more specific except I had left my glasses somewhere at work and didn't realize it until I was on my way.
Homer J. Simpson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2008, 02:01 AM   #47
TRZ
Welcome to the Rail World
 
TRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson View Post
^No but close. It was actually closer to the EX near the foot of Bathurst.

I would be more specific except I had left my glasses somewhere at work and didn't realize it until I was on my way.
Fleet?
__________________
Pssst... your balls are showing...

EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME transit geek
TRZ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2008, 03:52 PM   #48
Homer J. Simpson
Registered User
 
Homer J. Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sector 7-G
Posts: 2,496
Likes (Received): 17

^We have a weiner!

Yeah I was making a right off of Bathurst and went down the Fleet St. ROW.
Homer J. Simpson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 26th, 2008, 07:12 PM   #49
Homer J. Simpson
Registered User
 
Homer J. Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sector 7-G
Posts: 2,496
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by excerpt from Steve Munro's blog
Toronto Transit Commission staff, tomorrow, will seek approval from Commissioners to enter into a multi-phase bid process with three known and proven manufactures of low-floor light rail vehicles: Alstom Transportation Inc., Bombardier Transportation Canada Inc., and Siemens Canada Limited. The technical requirements remain unchanged.

On July 17 the TTC announced that it had cancelled the Request for Proposal process to purchase 204 new low-floor streetcars. The two bids it received at the June 30 deadline were deemed non-compliant. The TTC said it would review its options to ensure the current streetcar fleet is replaced starting in 2012 with new, accessible vehicles. The recommendation from staff is that the TTC begin discussions with all three manufactures with respect to technical and commercial requirements. A formal competitive pricing phase, including a plan for 25% Canadian content, will be the last phase of the process before a contract award is recommended to the Commission.

Prior to the close of the original RFP, the TTC retained a Fairness Monitor, Hon. Coulter Osborne, to ensure the process was followed as set out in the RFP. He concurred with staff’s decision that both bids received by the TTC were evaluated fairly and in a manner consistent with the RFP.

Under its procurement rules, the TTC may contact any vendor, including those who responded to a Request for Expressions of Interest, a process undertaken before the original RFP was issued. The TTC met recently with representatives from Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens. Each indicated they could build a streetcar that meets the technical requirements established in the original RFP.

If the recommendation is adopted, TTC staff will report regularly to the Commission on the status of discussions. The TTC believes the multi-phase bid process is the best option to ensure it obtains new streetcars that will meet the city’s needs. It also allows for questions or concerns to be discussed without the rigors of a formal RFP process.
Not sure what to make of this, the TTC may have to re-examine its criteria.
Homer J. Simpson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 03:39 AM   #50
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 74,419
Likes (Received): 5514

TTC wants to deal with rail firms directly
$1.25B Project
Looks to replace formal proposals for new streetcars

27 August 2008
National Post

The Toronto Transit Commission wants to negotiate directly with three major light rail manufacturers, including Bombardier, to secure the design and $1.25-billion purchase of 204 new low-floor streetcars that will operate on the city's ageing track network.

TTC staff will ask commissioners to approve the course of action at today's meeting, which would replace the formal proposals process that collapsed in July when the TTC failed Bombardier's bid over safety concerns that remain in dispute. In addition to Bombardier, the TTC wants to work with French conglomerate Alstom and German company Siemens to find a fully accessible streetcar fleet.

Bombardier, the Montreal-based manufacturer, expressed reservations yesterday about the fact an open, transparent framework it spent many months and millions of dollars preparing for has been scrapped, likely in favour of talks with competitors who never even submitted bids.

"Our concern is that the process is not an open and official process," said Genvieve Dion, director communications for Bombardier Transportation, the company's light-rail division. "It's clear that the rules have changed. We submitted a bid that we strongly believed was responsive; certainly the process is not well set-up."

Ms. Dion also said the company does not understand why a repeatedly requested meeting between engineers from Bombardier and the TTC to resolve the differences will not take place until after the commission votes on the new process. She called the situation "very unusual" if not "unique" in the company's experience as a world leader supplying trams.

But Brad Ross, a spokesman for the TTC, said the transit authority had no choice but to cancel its request for proposals once Bombardier, the frontrunner, was deemed to have failed a component of an all-or-nothing test.

"There are very strict rules around an RFP [request for proposal] and we communicate with vendors and how vendors communicate with us," he said. "This approach allows for discussion, it allows for questions, it allows for clarification, pick up the phone, have a meeting."

Mr. Ross added that the technical requirements -- including that the cars be 100% low floor, work on the existing tracks and have 25% Canadian content -- remain the same.

Councillor Adam Giambrone (Davenport), chairman of the TTC, said for many reasons the commission would have preferred an RFP.

"Ideally an RFP is the best way to go because it is the most open and transparent," he said. "Our current fairness commissioner, who recommended we cancel the RFP, is going to continue to be engaged in this, to continue to make sure this process is fair and transparent. An RFP is easiest from that perspective, and it didn't work, so we're now going to the negotiated procurement option."

Bombardier asserts the TTC's decision to disqualify its proposal was "premature," said Ms. Dion, and its design was safe. Disagreement hinges on whether Bombardier's proposal of an alternative wheel profile but not the TTC's ideal was grounds for disqualification.

"We stand by that what we proposed in Section 15, the alternate profile, would meet all the safety and operational requirements as well as the other RFP requirements while adhering to industry-wide safety standards," said Ms. Dion.

But Mr. Ross said the rules were clear. "If you want to submit an alternative that's fine, but you have to submit a base," he said. "But even the alternative wouldn't have worked. They're saying: You could ground the rails and that would cost as little as $10-million. We dispute that. It would cost far more than that in fact. There are over 90 curves on the system that would require a new track structure. You'd have to expand the loops, which means purchasing property."
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg | Moscow | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Sydney | Hanoi | Bangkok | Prague

New York, London, Seoul, Taipei, Mumbai, Tokyo, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 05:57 AM   #51
TRZ
Welcome to the Rail World
 
TRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 1

I was at the commission meeting, and Bombardier's vice-president was there, and sounded very irrated and was pretty arrogant when he was presenting his case. He's doing damage to his company's relationship with the TTC with his attitude, not conductive to business. Bombardier's clearly not used to losing contracts and they don't take it very well.
__________________
Pssst... your balls are showing...

EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME transit geek
TRZ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 06:26 AM   #52
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,195
Likes (Received): 150

What a monumental waste of time.
The TTC is firm on 25% CDN content. Unless Siemen's or Alstom decides to build a plant here then we are back to Bombardier.
As far as Bombardier is concerned, I don't blame them for being pissed off. They spent millions to try to get this contract when Alstom didn't spend a dime and Siemen's only slightly more than that and then backed out.

I have NEVER heard of a tram/streetcar falling over so I'm not sure where the TTC is getting that idea. Bombardier spent a lot to bring forward a good proposal when the other two didn't and the thanks is to start again.

If they think Bombardier can't fulfill their needs then who can with the 25% CDN requirement.............nobody. If a Cadillac dealer presented a car for you and offered extra benefits, great price, and went out of their way to accomodate your special needs and gave you months to make up your mind but then you decided at the last minute they didn't want your product and will go with European dealer who didn't even want your business in the first place then how would you feel?

Bombardier bargained in good faith and the TTC has not.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 06:31 AM   #53
kettal
city
 
kettal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,078
Likes (Received): 0

The order is indeed big enough to entice a foreign firm to start a factory in Ontario.
kettal no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 06:33 AM   #54
Jaye101
Midtown Fella
 
Jaye101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: █♣█ Toronto
Posts: 5,345
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
What a monumental waste of time.
The TTC is firm on 25% CDN content. Unless Siemen's or Alstom decides to build a plant here then we are back to Bombardier.
As far as Bombardier is concerned, I don't blame them for being pissed off. They spent millions to try to get this contract when Alstom didn't spend a dime and Siemen's only slightly more than that and then backed out.

I have NEVER heard of a tram/streetcar falling over so I'm not sure where the TTC is getting that idea. Bombardier spent a lot to bring forward a good proposal when the other two didn't and the thanks is to start again.

If they think Bombardier can't fulfill their needs then who can with the 25% CDN requirement.............nobody. If a Cadillac dealer presented a car for you and offered extra benefits, great price, and went out of their way to accomodate your special needs and gave you months to make up your mind but then you decided at the last minute they didn't want your product and will go with European dealer who didn't even want your business in the first place then how would you feel?

Bombardier bargained in good faith and the TTC has not.
I don't know dude, 25% Canadian materials really doesn't seem like that much. Might as well use Canadian tax dollars to support Canadian business'. Companies other than Bombardier can import the products from here like they most likely do from other countries.
Jaye101 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 06:42 AM   #55
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,195
Likes (Received): 150

Quote:
Originally Posted by kettal View Post
The order is indeed big enough to entice a foreign firm to start a factory in Ontario.
Obviously not or Siemen's would have mentioned that in their proposals. Alstom obviously considered unrealistic enough to not even bother to get the contract in the first place.

As far as I'm considered only Bombardier should be considered except possibly that little British Trams company if they had the 25% CDN content.
I know, I know they are nothing but I would rather have them than Siemen's or, especially Alstom who didn't show any interest to begin with.

Wouldn't be funny if they went with the little British Trams if they offered a great price and produced them all in Toronto in order to get a name. It would be worth their while. Atleast they showed interest in the first place.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 06:48 AM   #56
kettal
city
 
kettal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,078
Likes (Received): 0

Why is submitting a non-compliant bid any better than failing to submit a bid -- perhaps for the same technical reasons as the non-compliancy? Siemens was serious about it, they bought full-page newspaper ads, and brought a sample tram to last year's CNE. I don't have any reason to believe that TTC voided Bombardier's bid purely for shits and giggles. If you do, please produce the evidence.

If you think Tram Power can start a factory here, then you should have no doubt that a huge corporation can, too. This is potentially the largest streetcar order in human history.
kettal no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 07:05 AM   #57
ssiguy2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,195
Likes (Received): 150

I agree you would think a large corporation could build here but Altsom doesn't see the need.
This is a waste of time. They should give it to Bombardier and be done with it. They put a good bid and bargained in good faith while Alstom couldn't have been bothered and Siemen's gave up.

The only alternative to Bombardier should be the TramPower.........CityTram. That tiny little company managed to stay competitive after Siemen's withdrew. The contract should go to either Bombardier or TramPower or the whole process has been a farce from start to finish.
ssiguy2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 02:36 PM   #58
JustinB
Registered User
 
JustinB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,700
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
What a monumental waste of time.
The TTC is firm on 25% CDN content. Unless Siemen's or Alstom decides to build a plant here then we are back to Bombardier.
As far as Bombardier is concerned, I don't blame them for being pissed off. They spent millions to try to get this contract when Alstom didn't spend a dime and Siemen's only slightly more than that and then backed out.

I have NEVER heard of a tram/streetcar falling over so I'm not sure where the TTC is getting that idea. Bombardier spent a lot to bring forward a good proposal when the other two didn't and the thanks is to start again.

If they think Bombardier can't fulfill their needs then who can with the 25% CDN requirement.............nobody. If a Cadillac dealer presented a car for you and offered extra benefits, great price, and went out of their way to accomodate your special needs and gave you months to make up your mind but then you decided at the last minute they didn't want your product and will go with European dealer who didn't even want your business in the first place then how would you feel?

Bombardier bargained in good faith and the TTC has not.
I do not think the 25% Canadian Content is the issue. It has specifically been stated that most of the most will be done in Europe. The Canadian Content would most likely be components that can be manufactured here. And the trams will be assembled here.

The TTC has screwed up. Again.
JustinB no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 03:36 PM   #59
Homer J. Simpson
Registered User
 
Homer J. Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sector 7-G
Posts: 2,496
Likes (Received): 17

The last paragraph of the article states this:
Quote:
But Mr. Ross said the rules were clear. "If you want to submit an alternative that's fine, but you have to submit a base," he said. "But even the alternative wouldn't have worked. They're saying: You could ground the rails and that would cost as little as $10-million. We dispute that. It would cost far more than that in fact. There are over 90 curves on the system that would require a new track structure. You'd have to expand the loops, which means purchasing property."
Now it certainly sounds to me from what I have heard from different sources that the bid Bombardier made was not good enough to handle all of the quirky parts of our system. I'm inclined to believe that as our system has some ridiculous grades and tight turns. A streetcar designed for a different system with 100% low floor is NOT going to work near as well here.

Also Bombardier is full of arrogant dicks who thought that this was in the bag when only Tram Power bid for it. A lot of their money is rapped up in this bid but if they wanted it to go more smoothly they should have tried to be more compliant.
Homer J. Simpson no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 28th, 2008, 06:19 PM   #60
TRZ
Welcome to the Rail World
 
TRZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer J. Simpson View Post
Also Bombardier is full of arrogant dicks who thought that this was in the bag when only Tram Power bid for it. A lot of their money is rapped up in this bid but if they wanted it to go more smoothly they should have tried to be more compliant.
If you're suggesting that Bombardier believes they have some sense of entitlement to this project, I agree. Their vice-president specifically went out of his way to highlight that Bombardier has provided all of the TTC's current rail-based fleet, so there is a clear attitude projected that this is supposed to be handed to them by some unwritten rule, like by default.

Bombardier exercised the unprofessional perspective of not using the TTC's supplied geometry but instead was using European standards or something instead. Bombardier did not ask questions before their bid submission, they made a big error in professionalism in asking questions within their bid with the their submission, not before.
__________________
Pssst... your balls are showing...

EXTREEEEEEEEEEEME transit geek
TRZ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu