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View Poll Results: Which Streetcar?
Bombardier's Outlook 80 85.11%
Siemens Combino 14 14.89%
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Old March 29th, 2009, 06:32 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by ssiguy2 View Post
I know the current streetcars are on their last legs and have to be replaced but they still are going to need a shitload of new cars for TC and with construction beginning this fall they better start ordering cars or they could find themselves with new infastructure with no rolling stock.
They shouldn't doddle, but service isn't going to start until, at the very earliest, 2013 anyway. Since they won't have to go through any design work for the TC ones, as the legacy fleet replacement will lay all the groundwork minus the double doors and double cabs, those can start rolling off the assembly line quite quickly.
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Old March 29th, 2009, 07:41 PM   #102
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Will the transit city ones really have to be essentially the same vehicle?

Off the shelf models should work, there's no dire need for them to make turns on the legacy problem intersections.
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Old March 29th, 2009, 07:47 PM   #103
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Will the transit city ones really have to be essentially the same vehicle?

Off the shelf models should work, there's no dire need for them to make turns on the legacy problem intersections.
They want the maintenance crews to be compatible with one-another for efficiency and streamlining. It's a clear advantage to have them as similar as possible from the maintenance and system management perspective.
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Old March 31st, 2009, 07:01 AM   #104
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I appreciate what you are saying about TC and in normal circumstances I would agree that's loads of time but this is not normal circumstances. Now that Obama has gotten his infastructure budget there will be a fury of LRT train orders from existing and planned/under construction LRT projects.
There are few LRT manufacturing plants in NA and they could find themselves in line for LRT cars because other systems have ordered their cars. Remember that all US and probably Canadian LRT trains will have to built here so they won't get their trains offshore which basically means Bombardier in Ontario and Siemens in Sacramento will have to fill all the orders.
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Old March 31st, 2009, 07:22 AM   #105
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I heard there's some unemployed folks in Oshawa who might be looking for work.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 12:56 PM   #106
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TTC set to buy new streetcars

But question of who'll foot the $1.2-billion bill for the 204 vehicles remains

By BRYN WEESE, SUN MEDIA

Last Updated: 3rd April 2009, 3:03am


The hot buzzword at the TTC right now is "streetcars," with the public transit authority poised to soon buy several hundred euro-style, fully accessible ones.

The question remains, though, who's going to foot the bill?

The province's $9 billion for GTA transit announced Wednesday does include buying the additional streetcars -- and their associated costs, such as car houses -- for Transit City's Finch and Eglinton lines that are being fast-tracked, TTC chairman Adam Giambrone confirmed yesterday.

But it doesn't include the $1.2 billion the TTC needs to buy 204 streetcars to replace its aging fleet, which almost certainly must be done before the new vehicles can be purchased because the Transit City cars are expected to be bought as an option on the yet-to-be-approved bid for the replacement cars.

"That makes the most sense ... General supply-and-demand economics suggest the larger the number, the better price you get," Giambrone said, noting it's still a mystery who'll cough up the $1.2 billion.

City Hall, though, has already committed to paying a third, and Toronto Mayor David Miller has said he'd like to see federal government money used for some of the replacement costs, too.

"The city and province are working together very well to get that money together, but if you ask me today if we have that, the answer is no," Giambrone said.

And time is running out.

MEETING PLANNED

Later this month, the TTC board is meeting to discuss -- and ultimately approve -- a bid for the 204 replacement cars.

Giambrone is "optimistic" funding will be made available before April 27. "This has turned into quite a big month for the TTC," he said.

Those bids to be discussed April 27 -- likely from Quebec-based Bombardier, France's Alstom and Siemens Canada -- will include an option to purchase 364 more cars for Transit City, as required.

They also include a provision that 25% of the parts or labour for the streetcars be Canadian.

Over the past two years, the TTC has been trying to find a supplier for their new streetcar fleet, but dismissed a bid from Bombardier last year because the TTC worried their Flexity Outlook model couldn't make some of the tight turns built into the tracks.

In August, the TTC announced it was opening a new tendering process that would allow discussions with the TTC and the manufacturers, and while Bombardier was the only proponent in the first tender, the two others have since expressed interest.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 04:07 AM   #107
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I seriously doubt that the feds or Queen's Park will be forking up any new funds for streetcars if only 25% of the manufacturing of them is required to be Canadian and I don't blame them. Wheather this is part of the "stimulus" money or not is irrelevant. The people of Ontario and Toronto will be livid when they realize their hard earned tax dollars are going towards French/German/Czech factory workers.
I would be more than a little mad knowing that the beautiful new streetcar I'm riding on was made offshore with my money as I'm on my way to the Food Bank.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 04:10 AM   #108
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Yet you support the Canada Line and all that made it happen... including the Korean labour behind the rolling stock.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 04:14 AM   #109
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Some parts such as circuit boards and synthetic materials are better sourced externally, for many reasons. If the choice is to have a low quality Canadian part or a high quality Korean, then it would be simply wasteful protectionism at the cost of quality and service.
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #110
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Does the money from the funding announcement for the Eglinton, Finch West and Scarborough RT upgrade have to be allocated strictly for those projects or do they go into the City's transportation infrastructure coffer and then gets doled out from there? If the bid for the new streetcars is due soon, would it be possible for the City to use those funds for the bid as that is probably the most pressing transit infrastructure need right now? If the money were to become available at a later date, they could simply replace the money they borrowed.

Of course if the monies are all tied to their respective projects then we'd be faced with a different problem. Could the City scale back about $1 billion from the 3 projects to get the streetcars purchased?
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Old April 5th, 2009, 12:26 AM   #111
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If paid for directly by the province, no.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 08:29 AM   #112
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What ever made you think I supported korean subway cars?

Anyway....they better make up their minds fast and start ordering those cars. Remember they are basically have to be either Bombardier or Siemens to meet local content.
Alstrom, Skoda might as well withdraw right now unless they are planning to set up a plant in Ontario. If they do that would be nice but it would take even longer to get those streetcars/LRT.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 05:46 PM   #113
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Don't worry, Bombardier and Siemens are the only ones currently participating.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:31 PM   #114
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What ever made you think I supported korean subway cars?
Because you speak so glowingly of Vancouver's system and how everything they do is perfect while TTC has their heads in the sand. Vancouver's Canada Line has its vehicles coming from South Korea. There's other notoriety revolving around the Canada Line, too, but that has nothing to do with the rolling stock.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:06 PM   #115
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As much as I want Bombardier to win(purely from a railfan view), I have a feeling they will be awarded the contract through dubious means.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 09:25 PM   #116
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Well lets hope whomever wins out, that they'll have the foresight to implement linear induction motor mechanisms within their vehicles' trunks. That way, our subway lines can take on less conventional turning radii (curves as narrow as 50m) allowing for more convenient right-of-ways through preexisting built-up areas with limited land availability to spare.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 01:36 AM   #117
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The TTC beats Translink in everyway period. I also think the Canada Line was one of ther largest wastes of money in living memory. Only thing I compared it to was the length of the line for $2.2 bil as opposed to the $2.6 bil for 8km of suburban subway.

Anyway, the TTC better hurry but the thing that gets me is the Bombardier offer/vehicle offered before didn't meet expectations so I don't see how things will change now.
The only other NA manufacturer is Siemens.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 04:37 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENTROBATE54 View Post
Well lets hope whomever wins out, that they'll have the foresight to implement linear induction motor mechanisms within their vehicles' trunks. That way, our subway lines can take on less conventional turning radii (curves as narrow as 50m) allowing for more convenient right-of-ways through preexisting built-up areas with limited land availability to spare.
What foresight is there in implementing LIM's? The TTC is looking to get rid of LIM technology!
No offense, but that is a pretty nutty idea.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 08:17 PM   #119
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What foresight is there in implementing LIM's? The TTC is looking to get rid of LIM technology!
No offense, but that is a pretty nutty idea.
No offense, but it is a pretty nutty idea to overlook a technology that would make possible narrower track alignments. That would allow vehicles to operate underneath winding innercity streets where the built-up form prevents the extensive expropriation required in order to handle a 116m or greater curve in some cases. Why should an inferior ROW far removed from preexisitng density in an urban centre be chosen just because it can handle wider curves? LIM would resolve alot of these issues. It's worked for Berlin and Tokyo's metro networks, it could work here; and without much added expense to the TTC/City either.
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Old April 7th, 2009, 08:56 PM   #120
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I don't think that's necessary, as only one more subway line in the inner-city will be constructed in the foreseeable future. It would also be a pain in the ass if the trains wouldn't be compatible with the other lines in the system, unnecessarily. To significantly alter the types of vehicles being used in order to maneuver a couple sharp turns on one new line that can very well be built without those turns is impractical.
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