Streetcar / LRT Vehicle Purchase | 204 Streetcars, 364 LRT | Bidding Process | $1.25, ? Billion

[Toronto2008]

A streetcar now for city of tomorrow

After years of anticipation, the Toronto Transit Commission will announce later this month whether Bombardier or Siemens Canada has won a record-breaking contract to replace its aging streetcars.

At $1.25 billion to $3 billion, the buy will be the biggest ever by a Canadian city, and among the largest light-rail-vehicle orders in the world.

More than big money is riding on the deal. This contract is all about the two urgent urban concerns of 2009: the jobs of today and the city of tomorrow.

It could prop up the foundering economy of Thunder Bay, where Bombardier has a plant.

Or it could mean 200 new jobs in the similarly struggling Toronto region, where Siemens has pledged to build a plant if it gets the deal.

The TTC believes the light rail vehicles (LRVs) can reform the habits of car-tethered suburbanites and ease the long, depressing commutes of low-income workers living in underserviced areas.

Politicians and planners believe neighbourhoods will be transformed when the LRVs begin operating on an extensive system of light rail lines dubbed Transit City, as well as on the 11 existing streetcar routes.

Whichever supplier is chosen April 27, the 204 new cars – with potentially 364 more to fully outfit Transit City – will be quieter and sleeker than the 248 iconic clunkers that now lumber along Toronto's thoroughfares.

"Customers will find (them) more comfortable than the current fleet," said Stephen Lam, TTC superintendent of light rail engineering, citing "their modernistic and roomy interior design, seating arrangement, panoramic windows, full accessibility and user-friendly features, and air-conditioning."

Now it comes down to who will build them, and where – and whose sinking economy will benefit.

Both Bombardier and Siemens say they offer proven technology and reliable LRVs. The bids are based on Bombardier's Flexity Outlook and Siemens' Combino Plus models. Similar in design features, both are excellent, 100 per cent low-floor cars, Lam says.

But the winning bidder will have to customize its model to Toronto's unique requirements, so TTC engineers have understandably focused on technical aspects. Both makers had to prove their vehicle could handle Toronto's steep hills and uncommonly tight turning points.

The other key requirement: 25 per cent, or about $300 million, of the fleet order has to involve Canadian parts and labour.

That's not much compared with job-protection policies abroad, says John Cartwright, president of the Toronto and York Region Labour Council. The U.S. demands 60 per cent American content.

"We believe the TTC could easily have (a major supplier) providing those streetcars at 50 per cent content," Cartwright said. He said raising the Canadian portion would obviously be easier for Bombardier, "but if Siemens does want to commit to a long-term economic investment in Ontario, then it should be just as favourable to them."

Both have set up plants elsewhere to meet content requirements.

The TTC says it would raise the 25 per cent requirement if it later exercises the option to buy 364 more cars for Transit City. (TTC funding even for the initial order of 204 is not yet in hand, but the province has already pledged to outfit the first two Transit City lines.)

"With the Thunder Bay plant and the parts network we have established, we could certainly entertain higher levels of (Canadian) content," said Bombardier spokesperson David Slack.

Some parts would be Canadian-made but supply lines would remain "multinational," said Slack.

Siemens, which has its Canadian headquarters in Mississauga, says it would have no problem meeting the 25 per cent mark. It has been talking to the province about sites for an assembly plant employing about 200 workers plus engineers.

Its preference is to stay in the GTA. And on that score, Siemens has new statistics on its side: Three-month seasonally adjusted figures in March showed that at 8.8 per cent, the Toronto area's jobless rate has outpaced Thunder Bay's 8.6.

The workforce is here; the client is here, said Mario Peloquin, Siemens' director of mobility.

But the Canadian content rule is more complex than it appears.

"It's a tough number for any company because of the strict method of calculating the 25 per cent – it's 25 per cent of the price to the customer," said Peloquin, who notes there are costs attached to opening a plant. "It sounds low, but if you brought it up to 80 per cent, nobody could achieve it" and still make the LRV affordable, he said.

But even 25 per cent is enough to secure up to 250 jobs for 10 years, according to the CAW, which represents the workers in Thunder Bay.

The spinoff potential is critical, said Thunder Bay Mayor Lynn Peterson. "With a contract that big, it could be up to 800 jobs – that's an enormous boon to the community."

The city of 128,000 has lost 2,000 jobs in the forestry sector alone. "Like anybody else, we're waiting and hoping (Bombardier tenders) are successful," Peterson said.

She's been promoting the bid to anyone who will listen, including Toronto Mayor David Miller. "He knows how important it is to Thunder Bay. He knows what I'm going to say when he sees me coming."

She also knows Miller is bound by the TTC's careful procurement process, which is being scrutinized by fairness monitors to avoid a repeat of the 2006 controversy in which new subway cars were sole-sourced to Bombardier.

And the rivalry goes on. Siemens and Bombardier are both in the running to build an automatic signal system for the subway. That's expected to be announced on the same day as the LRV deal: April 27.



heres the Bombardier one:



http://cdn.dexigner.com/images/detai...tlook_Tram.jpg

OR

Siemens Combino



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...CombinoBVB.jpg

which one would YOU want to take ??????

[TRZ]

This should be in the Toronto Transit section.

Thunder Bay doesn't have the capacity to pump out these vehicles fast enough. Thunder Bay is busy with subway cars and GO Trains already, they don't have the facilities necessary for the streetcar order even though they have the labour surplus. Whether Siemens builds around the airport or in the portlands, both of which are competitive, convenient locations far superior to Thunder Bay, the new plant is what will seal the deal for them, I think.

Bombardier's looks more futuristic and sleek, but I think Siemens's would actually blend in better with Toronto. I'm imagining both of the vehicle in red.

[Toronto2008]

Originally Posted by TRZ

This should be in the Toronto Transit section.

its not talking about transit (as in maps, routes), its a toronto issue to talk about which street car we want to see

Originally Posted by TRZ

Thunder Bay doesn't have the capacity to pump out these vehicles fast enough. Thunder Bay is busy with subway cars and GO Trains already, they don't have the facilities necessary for the streetcar order even though they have the labour surplus. Whether Siemens builds around the airport or in the portlands, both of which are competitive, convenient locations far superior to Thunder Bay, the new plant is what will seal the deal for them, I think.

Bombardier's looks more futuristic and sleek, but I think Siemens's would actually blend in better with Toronto. I'm imagining both of the vehicle in red.

i dont think that the mayor of Thunder bay would be pushing for the contract if they didnt have the capacity for it. The alternative will see construction of a new plant which = added time. Atleast bombardier has a plant up and running. Plus their street cars look cooler!!!!!

[Taller, Better]

Does anyone actually believe that any contract would be given to any other company than Bombardier?

[kettal]

Toronto Star

A streetcar now for city of tomorrow

Finish line near for two contenders in high stakes race to supply the TTC's wheels for Transit City
Apr 18, 2009 04:30 AM

Tess Kalinowski
TRANSPORTATION REPORTER

After years of anticipation, the Toronto Transit Commission will announce later this month whether Bombardier or Siemens Canada has won a record-breaking contract to replace its aging streetcars.

At $1.25 billion to $3 billion, the buy will be the biggest ever by a Canadian city, and among the largest light-rail-vehicle orders in the world.

More than big money is riding on the deal. This contract is all about the two urgent urban concerns of 2009: the jobs of today and the city of tomorrow.

It could prop up the foundering economy of Thunder Bay, where Bombardier has a plant.

Or it could mean 200 new jobs in the similarly struggling Toronto region, where Siemens has pledged to build a plant if it gets the deal.

The TTC believes the light rail vehicles (LRVs) can reform the habits of car-tethered suburbanites and ease the long, depressing commutes of low-income workers living in underserviced areas.

Politicians and planners believe neighbourhoods will be transformed when the LRVs begin operating on an extensive system of light rail lines dubbed Transit City, as well as on the 11 existing streetcar routes.

Whichever supplier is chosen April 27, the 204 new cars – with potentially 364 more to fully outfit Transit City – will be quieter and sleeker than the 248 iconic clunkers that now lumber along Toronto's thoroughfares.

"Customers will find (them) more comfortable than the current fleet," said Stephen Lam, TTC superintendent of light rail engineering, citing "their modernistic and roomy interior design, seating arrangement, panoramic windows, full accessibility and user-friendly features, and air-conditioning."

Now it comes down to who will build them, and where – and whose sinking economy will benefit.

Both Bombardier and Siemens say they offer proven technology and reliable LRVs. The bids are based on Bombardier's Flexity Outlook and Siemens' Combino Plus models. Similar in design features, both are excellent, 100 per cent low-floor cars, Lam says.

But the winning bidder will have to customize its model to Toronto's unique requirements, so TTC engineers have understandably focused on technical aspects. Both makers had to prove their vehicle could handle Toronto's steep hills and uncommonly tight turning points.

The other key requirement: 25 per cent, or about $300 million, of the fleet order has to involve Canadian parts and labour.

That's not much compared with job-protection policies abroad, says John Cartwright, president of the Toronto and York Region Labour Council. The U.S. demands 60 per cent American content.

"We believe the TTC could easily have (a major supplier) providing those streetcars at 50 per cent content," Cartwright said. He said raising the Canadian portion would obviously be easier for Bombardier, "but if Siemens does want to commit to a long-term economic investment in Ontario, then it should be just as favourable to them."

Both have set up plants elsewhere to meet content requirements.

The TTC says it would raise the 25 per cent requirement if it later exercises the option to buy 364 more cars for Transit City. (TTC funding even for the initial order of 204 is not yet in hand, but the province has already pledged to outfit the first two Transit City lines.)

"With the Thunder Bay plant and the parts network we have established, we could certainly entertain higher levels of (Canadian) content," said Bombardier spokesperson David Slack.

Some parts would be Canadian-made but supply lines would remain "multinational," said Slack.

Siemens, which has its Canadian headquarters in Mississauga, says it would have no problem meeting the 25 per cent mark. It has been talking to the province about sites for an assembly plant employing about 200 workers plus engineers.

Its preference is to stay in the GTA. And on that score, Siemens has new statistics on its side: Three-month seasonally adjusted figures in March showed that at 8.8 per cent, the Toronto area's jobless rate has outpaced Thunder Bay's 8.6.

The workforce is here; the client is here, said Mario Peloquin, Siemens' director of mobility.

But the Canadian content rule is more complex than it appears.

"It's a tough number for any company because of the strict method of calculating the 25 per cent – it's 25 per cent of the price to the customer," said Peloquin, who notes there are costs attached to opening a plant. "It sounds low, but if you brought it up to 80 per cent, nobody could achieve it" and still make the LRV affordable, he said.

But even 25 per cent is enough to secure up to 250 jobs for 10 years, according to the CAW, which represents the workers in Thunder Bay.

The spinoff potential is critical, said Thunder Bay Mayor Lynn Peterson. "With a contract that big, it could be up to 800 jobs – that's an enormous boon to the community."

The city of 128,000 has lost 2,000 jobs in the forestry sector alone. "Like anybody else, we're waiting and hoping (Bombardier tenders) are successful," Peterson said.

She's been promoting the bid to anyone who will listen, including Toronto Mayor David Miller. "He knows how important it is to Thunder Bay. He knows what I'm going to say when he sees me coming."

She also knows Miller is bound by the TTC's careful procurement process, which is being scrutinized by fairness monitors to avoid a repeat of the 2006 controversy in which new subway cars were sole-sourced to Bombardier.

And the rivalry goes on. Siemens and Bombardier are both in the running to build an automatic signal system for the subway. That's expected to be announced on the same day as the LRV deal: April 27.

TORONTO'S NEW LRVS

What: 204 larger Light Rail Vehicles to replace city's existing streetcar fleet, with an option for 364 more to run on seven planned Transit City light rail lines.

When: TTC is to approve a contract with Siemens Canada or Bombardier on April 27. Delivery of first cars in 2010.

FEATURES

Longer: Cars 27 to 30 metres long, with three to five articulated sections.

Load: Carry 200 comfortably, 270 at crush times (vs. 132 in today's regular cars; 204 on articulated models).

Low floor: Riders board at curb height on 100 per cent low-floor streetcars. No stairs inside, but a slight incline is possible over the wheelworks.

Efficient: Cars will run on electricity conducted via wires on the roof, as now, but using 10 to 20 per cent less power. Contain more recyclable parts.

Climate: Heated and air-conditioned. Riders will also enjoy better views through larger windows.

Boarding: Riders can board from all doors and pay using smartcard readers.

BOMBARDIER

Rail division HQ: Berlin, Germany

Corporate HQ: Montreal

Toronto contributions:

• 234 subway cars (delivery starting 2010)

• Crewing contract for GO Transit trains (since 2007)

• GO's bi-level cars, now used across continent (began 1978)

Its car: Flexity Outlook car (seen above) in service in Brussels, Marseilles, Milan, Geneva, 12 other cities

Built: LRVs for 50 cities, mostly built in Austria and Germany

Elsewhere: Vancouver's Skytrain, Montreal subway, Ottawa's O-train; refurbishing LRVs for Edmonton. Plants in New York and Mexico build Minneapolis LRVs.

SIEMENS

International HQ: Berlin and Munich

Canadian HQ: Mississauga

Toronto contributions:

• $200 million GO Transit contract to upgrade signalling and communication systems

• Turbine plant, Hamilton; assembly centre for automotive technology, Burlington; postal automation facility, Ajax

Its car: Combino Plus (above) runs in Budapest and Lisbon

Elsewhere:

Company has Light Rail Vehicles running in 16 cities, including Paris, Amsterdam, Vienna, Melbourne and Hiroshima.

Most are assembled in Austria. Its Sacramento plant makes LRVs for that city, Edmonton, Calgary, Denver and San Diego

[Sid_toronto]

no, they and only they can lose us money over and over again.

[Taller, Better]

and disproportionately eliminate jobs in Ontario. Why would any competition bother to
mount a proposal?

[Gerrad]

Originally Posted by Taller, Better

Does anyone actually believe that any contract would be given to any other company than Bombardier?

Well, they would have been tons cheaper if they bought them from Europe.

[Filip]

Bombardier's Flexity Outlook is the same model used in Geneva. I had a chance to ride that beast numerous times this summer, and I would love to see it in Toronto!

However, the TTC is not a charity case and if not tendering Bombardier for the project means a loss of 200 jobs in Thunder Bay, so be it. This is the first time I heard of Siemens building a plan in Toronto, which would be far more acceptable than outsourcing all our transport manufacturing to Thunder Bay.

Anyway a pic of the Geneva Flexity tram.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

its not talking about transit (as in maps, routes), its a toronto issue to talk about which street car we want to see



i dont think that the mayor of Thunder bay would be pushing for the contract if they didnt have the capacity for it. The alternative will see construction of a new plant which = added time. Atleast bombardier has a plant up and running. Plus their street cars look cooler!!!!!

It's a transit issue. Transit includes vehicles, not just maps and routes. Mods, please move to transit section.

Thunder Bay cannot pump them out fast enough. It's not a question of whether or not they have the capacity to make them at all - they do, but they'd be far too slow, which is what I said in the first place (please read posts you reply to, thanks).

The mayor of Thunder Bay couldn't care less about Toronto's required delivery date, the mayor is only thinking about jobs for her constituents.

Toronto needed these vehicles yesterday. Yesterday, I took a photo of a 501 Long Branch BUS!!! The streetcars are breaking down so often, we're supplementing service with buses spliced in among the streetcars that are still working.

We MUST have a new plant for these to be delivered. The TTC wants these to be delivied at an output rate of about 60 per year. Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant wouldn't come even close to that, it would take them a decade to complete the order. So building a new plant SAVES TIME, it doesn't add to it.

A new plant can also eliminate shipping costs, especially if built in the Portlands.

[TRZ]

Actually, better yet, mods, please combine with the existing original thread.

Next time, check first for existing threads on the issue.

[Skybean]

Bombardier looks more futuristic.

[Epi]

Was interesting watching the Flexity video on the TTC website, jogged my memory a bit. I suddenly remembered that I'd seen LRT in Europe and Japan where instead of having a purpose built ROW, they just used the normal tracks like we do for streetcars here, and marked it off with a thick white line, and if cars crossed it, they would get a ticket.

That way, emergency vehicles could still use it, and people could still walk across it, and less space overall was used.

The catch is that drivers have to actually respect the lines. Why doesn't the TTC just do this to save money? Is it because they want to make it look pretty, or is it because they have no faith that Toronto drivers would actually not drive on these lanes?

[Jaye101]

Longer: Cars 27 to 30 metres long, with three to five articulated sections.

Three? I thought it was supposed to be two.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Epi

The catch is that drivers have to actually respect the lines. Why doesn't the TTC just do this to save money? Is it because they want to make it look pretty, or is it because they have no faith that Toronto drivers would actually not drive on these lanes?

I think the experience with HOV lanes isn't exactly getting their hopes up. I've said it before, but the TTC needs to be given the authority to ticket and collect penalties. Mount a camera on the front of every vehicle, and allow the driver to take pictures of cars that aren't supposed to be in its way. Integrate the camera with GPS so that the location of where the photo was taken can be confirmed (in addition to the standard time stamp). If the TTC can assign tickets, with brutal fines, I guarantee you there'd be a strong cultural shift pretty quick. Imagine if King Cars could just take pictures during the rush hours when cars are not supposed to be in the streetcar lanes (it's an existing street law on parts of King, but they can't enforce it). In the beginning, there'd be no change in behaviour, but the TTC would be making a FORTUNE by assigning tickets like no tomorrow. They'd make $100,000 PER DAY off King, no problem. 2-3 months later, King service would improve dramatically!

[Toronto2008]

Originally Posted by TRZ

Thunder Bay cannot pump them out fast enough. It's not a question of whether or not they have the capacity to make them at all - they do, but they'd be far too slow, which is what I said in the first place (please read posts you reply to, thanks).

dude, relax. i dont want to get into a "he said, she said" thing but the way you wrote this seemed like u think Thunder Bay is preoccupied with other projects and doesnt have the capacity to handle this project:

Originally Posted by TRZ

Thunder Bay doesn't have the capacity to pump out these vehicles fast enough. Thunder Bay is busy with subway cars and GO Trains already, they don't have the facilities necessary for the streetcar order even though they have the labour surplus. Whether Siemens builds around the airport or in the portlands, both of which are competitive, convenient locations far superior to Thunder Bay, the new plant is what will seal the deal for them, I think.

and I said that Bombardier wouldnt push for the project if they didnt have the capacity. And, if you read the article, it clearly says that a key requirement of the deal would see ONLY 25% of the order "has to involve Canadian parts and labour". Meaning, the majority of the order, 75%, can be done elsewhere. So, when you say that Thunder Bay cannot dish em out fast enough is not true because Thunder Bay is not going to make the entire fleet

[kettal]

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

and I said that Bombardier wouldnt push for the project if they didnt have the capacity. And, if you read the article, it clearly says that a key requirement of the deal would see ONLY 25% of the order "has to involve Canadian parts and labour". Meaning, the majority of the order, 75%, can be done elsewhere. So, when you say that Thunder Bay cannot dish em out fast enough is not true because Thunder Bay is not going to make the entire fleet

25% doesn't mean that the other vehicles will be assembled overseas, it means that 75% of cost of the parts can be sourced overseas. They will all have final assembly in the same place, and that's where the bottleneck is.

[TRZ]

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

dude, relax. i dont want to get into a "he said, she said" thing but the way you wrote this seemed like u think Thunder Bay is preoccupied with other projects and doesnt have the capacity to handle this project:

Originally Posted by TRZ

Thunder Bay doesn't have the capacity to pump out these vehicles fast enough.

Fast enough. And it doesn't have the capacity to handle the 204 LRV replacement order because of other projects. Thunder Bay could pump out around 20 a year. TTC needs 60 per year.

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

and I said that Bombardier wouldnt push for the project if they didnt have the capacity.

You said Thunder Bay's mayor, not Bombardier. If Bombardier gets the contract, they'll build a new plant.

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

i dont think that the mayor of Thunder bay would be pushing for the contract if they didnt have the capacity for it.

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

So, when you say that Thunder Bay cannot dish em out fast enough is not true because Thunder Bay is not going to make the entire fleet

Originally Posted by Toronto2008

The alternative will see construction of a new plant which = added time.

Both of these are false. The manufacturer is not going to build certain vehicles, as a whole, in this country, and build the rest, as a whole, in China. 75% of parts and labour will come from overseas. 25% of parts and labour, predominantly assembly, will be done at the Canadian plant.

New plant does not equal added time because a new plant has dedicated and higher capacity. If it takes a year to build a new plant, it is still twice as fast as letting Thunder Bay do it.

It's economies of scale.

[allurban]

I voted for Siemens to bring up the competition into our market and the jobs into the GTA.

It seems that both companies will build assembly plants - good for the Ontario economy - but Id rather see the plant in the GTA. Thunder Bay is already getting tons of orders for the bilevel cars plus they got the order for our new subway trains without an open and competitive tendering process.

Cheers, m

[JustinB]

Originally Posted by allurban

I voted for Siemens to bring up the competition into our market and the jobs into the GTA.

It seems that both companies will build assembly plants - good for the Ontario economy - but Id rather see the plant in the GTA. Thunder Bay is already getting tons of orders for the bilevel cars plus they got the order for our new subway trains without an open and competitive tendering process.

Cheers, m

Siemens is the biggest supplier of LRV's in Canada.