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Old April 17th, 2010, 02:37 AM   #81
cardiff
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Just stumbled across this thread and what a load of rubbish is being spouted, British cities such as Coventry and Exeter were purpusfully targeted because they were in a tourist book of Beautifull cities! And their destruction was hoped to destroy British moral. There are still large areas of cities with medieval architecture with Norwich having the largest intact center at present. if you think britian doesnt have beautiful cities then you are being quite deluded and turning this thread into an anti british thread. As for britiain wanting to destroy German cities because they were jealous then you should look at history and see that britian has been consistently the most leanient after the world wars.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 04:06 AM   #82
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Old April 17th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #83
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Just stumbled across this thread and what a load of rubbish is being spouted, British cities such as Coventry and Exeter were purpusfully targeted because they were in a tourist book of Beautifull cities! And their destruction was hoped to destroy British moral.
Coventry wasn't. The Baedeker cities were Exeter, Norwich, Canterbury, Bath and York. Of these, only Exeter was severely damaged. The great Georgian set-pieces of Bath escaped serious damage, as did most of York's medieval streets (plus the Minster). As far as I'm aware, the Baedeker raids were a direct consequence of the deliberate destruction of the medieval centre of Lubeck by Bomber Command in March 1942. 'Bomber' Harris admitted himself that Lubeck wasn't a 'vital target' but it was thought that the dense medieval housing would burn easily.

I'm not trying to justify the Nazis' role in the Second World War. Yes, they started it, but I do think that some of the actions undertaken by the Allies, i.e. the indiscriminate carpet bombing of Germany in 1944/45 are seriously open to question from a moral perspective.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #84
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Actually, the whole world of 1939 was still almost as imperialist as in 1918.


So it needed 2 world wars to put an end to imperialism after all. Well, actually it still isn't settled for some countries it seems.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #85
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I'm not trying to justify the Nazis' role in the Second World War. Yes, they started it, but I do think that some of the actions undertaken by the Allies, i.e. the indiscriminate carpet bombing of Germany in 1944/45 are seriously open to question from a moral perspective.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil -
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Old April 17th, 2010, 08:55 PM   #86
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Right. I think the anger and jeolosy of Churchill's inner circle as well as Roosevelt's that Germany had such a treasure of architectural jewels led them to want to pulverize the nation. Clearly, the mass carpet bombing was not just to win militarily. Churchill was a rabit Germanophobe and he had wanted the nation turned to dust since the early 1900s.

And, as noted, Germany offered the longest list of bomber targets of the era.

Unfortunately, rebuilt medieval structures are "fake" in terms of authenticity of the originals. nonetheless, rebuilds with an allegiance to the original design and intent is far superior to making everything look like another McDonald's.
Interesting approach...I'm glad you were in the minds of Churchill and Roosevelt. Especially when they were bombing Germany, while millions of Jews were being tortured to death totally inhumanely.

As for the architecture, I agree with you on the rebuild factor....and I too wish the targets of the bombs had not been such beautiful buildings. My lineage comes from a small town in Germany, and I love all of the architecture within the country.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #87
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Right. I think the anger and jeolosy of Churchill's inner circle as well as Roosevelt's that Germany had such a treasure of architectural jewels led them to want to pulverize the nation. Clearly, the mass carpet bombing was not just to win militarily. Churchill was a rabit Germanophobe and he had wanted the nation turned to dust since the early 1900s.

And, as noted, Germany offered the longest list of bomber targets of the era.

Unfortunately, rebuilt medieval structures are "fake" in terms of authenticity of the originals. nonetheless, rebuilds with an allegiance to the original design and intent is far superior to making everything look like another McDonald's.
Wow! Interesting! I know Churchill hated Germany, but I didn't realize how deep it was or how long he held those feelings. Unfortunately, his views are all to common, even here in the US. If I had a dime for everytime I've been called a "F&^king Nazi" I'd be able to pay off my student loans! Oh well, to hell with them all! Ich bin stolz ein Deutscher-Amerikaner zu sein.
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Old April 17th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #88
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Interesting approach...I'm glad you were in the minds of Churchill and Roosevelt. Especially when they were bombing Germany, while millions of Jews were being tortured to death totally inhumanely.

As for the architecture, I agree with you on the rebuild factor....and I too wish the targets of the bombs had not been such beautiful buildings. My lineage comes from a small town in Germany, and I love all of the architecture within the country.
As an American, you hardly have the moral authority to pass judement on Germany. What the US government did to the native population of this country, as well as to African Americans was hardly humane. Maybe Hitler took a page out of US History when he burned the books in Babel Platz. After all we did it. For example, here in Columbus during WWI, non-Germans burned German books in Washington a.k.a. Schiller Park and slaughtered German dogs. Or maybe he looked at pre-Civil War America and figured since the US sent people to plantations to be worked to death, why couldn't he? Another thing the US was good at was kicking native Americans off their land and "resettling" them on reservations! Oh what a glorous and rightous people we are here in the good ole USA, the home of the brave and the land of the free!

Last edited by Chadoh25; April 19th, 2010 at 06:31 AM.
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Old April 18th, 2010, 12:03 AM   #89
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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
Indeed. I think that is a profoundly accurate insight.
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Old April 18th, 2010, 05:08 AM   #90
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As an American, you hardly have the moral authority to pass judement on Germany. What the US government did the native population of this country, as well as to African Americans was hardly humane. Maybe Hitler took a page outta US History when he burned the books Babel Platz. After we did it. For example, here in Columbus during WWI, non-Germans burned German books in Washington a.k.a. Schiller Park and slaughtered German dogs. Or maybe he looked at pre-Civil War America and figured since the US sent people to plantations to be worked to death, why couldn't he? Another thing the US was good at was kicking native Americans off their land and "resettling" them on reservations! Oh what a glorous and rightous people we are here in the good ole USA, the home of the brave and the land of the free!
Feel better now? Considering I personally did not, nor have I ever participated in any event that ended the life of another human being, I actually do have the moral authority. Did I EVER say America was great, that we never did anything immoral or wrong? Nope. What I did say was the act of genocide by the Nazi regime of the Jewish population was inhumane. You are absolutely incorrect in any other point of view on that matter. If you want to be technical, my family is nearly pure German with lineage traced directly back to 1290. We have a town named after our family there, my father lived there for some time, and as an American with such strong German ties, I STILL not only feel, but know what happened was inhumane, and if you say otherwise, you have a serious problem.
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Old April 18th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #91
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Old April 18th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #92
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There is no (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) excuse for Hitlers and nazi crimes in WWII, this is my opinion as a german!
For they sow the wind and they will reap the whirlwind! This whirlwind kills millions of germans and the architectural heritage of our nation.

I love a quote of Sir Winston Churchill: "History is written by the victors"

(Curiously I was in Berlin a few days ago. I walked along the site where Hitlers body was burned in the dirt. Today it is a boring parking lot, a fitting memorial for this bastard!!)

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Old April 18th, 2010, 10:22 PM   #93
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Yeah, they weren't just ruthless military types, they were the effin whirlwind!!! Dropping bombs on civilians is A-okay if you are a whirlwind.

Anyway, this is a bullshit discussion imo.

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Old April 19th, 2010, 12:38 AM   #94
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what bullshit! I dont suppose Winston was too fond of germans after they very rudely starting bombing our people night after night,killing tens of thousands of people,invading half of europe killing millions in the process.I suppose we should have sent the nazis a thank you card.
Oh spare me. The British Empire invaded MANY nations around the world and brutally surpressed any that dare to defy it's will. And besides, two wrongs don't make a right!
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Old April 19th, 2010, 12:54 AM   #95
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Feel better now? Considering I personally did not, nor have I ever participated in any event that ended the life of another human being, I actually do have the moral authority. Did I EVER say America was great, that we never did anything immoral or wrong? Nope. What I did say was the act of genocide by the Nazi regime of the Jewish population was inhumane. You are absolutely incorrect in any other point of view on that matter. If you want to be technical, my family is nearly pure German with lineage traced directly back to 1290. We have a town named after our family there, my father lived there for some time, and as an American with such strong German ties, I STILL not only feel, but know what happened was inhumane, and if you say otherwise, you have a serious problem.
You're not very bright! First off, not all Germans were guilty of crimes against humanity and they did not deserve to have there homes leveled in an air raid. Also, in the end, I fail to see what good it did because Germany still had to be invaded in order to end the war. Second, don't be stupid. I never said what was done by the Nazi's government was right. Killing innocent people is never right, regardless of their background. Those Nazi's who took part in the killing of Jews, communist, Gays, Lesbians, and all other innocent people should have been put on trial and sentenced accordingly. Third, my cousin is Jewish and I would never allow ANYONE to hurt her or my family for any reason what so ever. Fourth, what I said was that YOU, as an American don't have the right to make judgements on Germans or German history because YOUR govenment has ingaged in acts of violance just as extreme and distasteful. It doesn't matter whether or not you have personally engaged in killing someone. So spare us all the lecture.

And finally, save the ethnic background lecture for someone else because I'm not impressed and I don't care. My mopm's mother's family (Hanawalt) arrived here in 1759 from Ulm, via Holland. Henry George and Catherine Lehman are buried in McVeytown, PA, just outside of State College. Her father's family (originally Schütz, but now spelled Sheets) came from Neckarbischoffsheim and arrived in Philly aboard a ship called the "Samual" in 1732. I've even gone back as far as Nichalos (Schütz) Sheets abt. 1581. Personally, I don't even understand why you brought up your family background. What are you trying to prove and to whom? Am I suppose to be impressed? Well guess what, I'm not.

Last edited by Chadoh25; April 19th, 2010 at 03:27 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 04:59 AM   #96
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You're not very bright! First off, not all Germans were guilty of crimes against humanity and they did not deserve to have there homes leveled in an air raid. Also, in the end, I fail to see what good it did because Germany still had to be invaded in order to end the war. Secondly, don't be stupid. I never said what was done by the Nazi's government was right. Killing innocent people is never right, regardless of their background. Those Nazi's who took part in the killing of Jews, communist, Gays, Lesbians, and all other innocent people should have been put on trial and sentenced accordingly. Secondly, my cousin is Jewish and I would never allow ANYONE to hurt her or my family for any reason what so ever. Third, what I said was that YOU, as an American don't have the right to make judgements on Germans or German history because YOUR govenment has ingaged in acts of violance just as extreme and distasteful. It doesn't matter whether or not you have personally engaged in killing someone. So spare us all the lecture.

And finally, save the ethnic background lecture for someone else because I'm not impressed and I don't care. My mopm's mother's family (Hanawalt) arrived here in 1759 from Ulm, via Holland. Henry George and Catherine Lehman are buried in McVeytown, PA, just outside of State College. Her father's family (originally Schütz, but now spelled Sheets) came from Neckarbischoffsheim and arrived in Philly aboard a ship called the "Samual" in 1732. I've even gone back as far as Nichalos (Schütz) Sheets abt. 1581. Personally, I don't even understand why you brought up your family background. What are you trying to prove and to whom? Am I suppose to be impressed? Well guess what, I'm not.
First, learn how to spell correctly before you attack my intelligence, which is a total oxymoron within itself. Second, since I must apparently spell things out for you, I have personally never committed any heinous act against humanity of any kind, therefore under the basic ethical standards of modern society I do have the moral high-ground to say what I previously stated. I brought up my family background to show I'm not a person of Jewish descent going on some random tirade against Germans. I also did it to show I am extremely proud of my home country. Which is why (sad I have to show you basic things) I stated specifically the Nazi regime, not the German people. I do not blame a then seventy year old woman for the murder victims of the Holocaust. These people of Germany were never my targets, the regime itself will always be.

Really, keep dishing it. Everyone on this thread acknowledges that you and your posts are a waste of time. However, I feel personally inclined to correct your errors .
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Old April 19th, 2010, 06:02 AM   #97
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First, learn how to spell correctly before you attack my intelligence, which is a total oxymoron within itself. Second, since I must apparently spell things out for you, I have personally never committed any heinous act against humanity of any kind, therefore under the basic ethical standards of modern society I do have the moral high-ground to say what I previously stated. I brought up my family background to show I'm not a person of Jewish descent going on some random tirade against Germans. I also did it to show I am extremely proud of my home country. Which is why (sad I have to show you basic things) I stated specifically the Nazi regime, not the German people. I do not blame a then seventy year old woman for the murder victims of the Holocaust. These people of Germany were never my targets, the regime itself will always be.

Really, keep dishing it. Everyone on this thread acknowledges that you and your posts are a waste of time. However, I feel personally inclined to correct your errors .
You're a total idiot and clearly have some deep self hatred issues. It's rather sad! Oh and well done, you found some typos. It was like 1:00 a.m. when I typed that up and I was beat from work. But aren't you just brilliantfor pointing that out! LOL And BTW, clearly you are trying to impress people by saying how you have such and such place named after you. News flash, NO one here cares. And finally, only God can judge people and their actions. So in the end, it doesn't matter what some self loathing schmuck like you thinks.

Last edited by Chadoh25; April 19th, 2010 at 03:35 PM.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 08:25 AM   #98
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Unfortunately, thinking people often times digress into the emotion of the sides they choose to align with.

Fact is, that the the targets of civilians by Mr. Churchill and Mr. Harris were BEFORE they knew about the nazi death camps. Even if, in some sad and vengeful fit of anger, one was to opt for killing children, elderly, and other non-combatant civilians as a means of retribution, the German 'hits' on England were very minimal vs those the Brits leveled on Germany. As people of a 21st century mentality of fairness, who can commend the actions of the allies and their terror bombing strategy? Based on the standards the global community measures the Americans' actions on Iraq, for example, the world owes Germany AND Japan a huge apology.

Secondly, as school children in American public schools, we always learned of the "great british empire coverying 75% of the land mass of the globe". Hmmmmm. So, the Brits' empire building and enslaving of 75% of the world for 2-3 hundred years was glorious, but the Germans' attempt to regain lost terrifory via a corrupt treaty of Versailles is an assault against humanity?

We need to get a balance on reality if we hope to move forward as an integrated global community.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 01:02 PM   #99
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the Germans' attempt to regain lost terrifory via a corrupt treaty of Versailles is an assault against humanity?
Who claimed that? What the Germans did in those territories were crimes against humanity.
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Old April 19th, 2010, 02:39 PM   #100
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Right. I think the anger and jeolosy of Churchill's inner circle as well as Roosevelt's that Germany had such a treasure of architectural jewels led them to want to pulverize the nation. Clearly, the mass carpet bombing was not just to win militarily. Churchill was a rabit Germanophobe and he had wanted the nation turned to dust since the early 1900s.
Wow, what an analysis! One could think that the Brits started
these bombing business. And your argument that British reaction
was unproportionate is silly. Hitler started a total war, as he called
it, so he got such. Definitely the revenge was also to turn
civilians against Nazis, which proved to be counterproductive.
As far as the Holocoust victims are concerned the Brits
policy was to win the war quick. The Germans though
didn't give up the mass destruction till the last days of the war,
so not many Jew's and Gypsies survived.
Anyway, the war left Europe seriously wounded all around
with Germany being no excepion.
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