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Old October 7th, 2009, 12:33 PM   #201
GENIUS LOCI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_R2 View Post
So what have you learned from this?
I learned not to try to determine which is largest, biggest, tallest and so on: it's pretty impossible... At least I learned it during years on SSC
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Old October 7th, 2009, 01:34 PM   #202
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Vienna Tramway Network

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WARNING! Enjoying this gallery may cause desire to come and experience this city!

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Old February 26th, 2010, 09:13 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawLee View Post
No,its the one south of the bridge,the one that goes into the city,the one south of the bridge,if it better that way.

Starts here

(wiki)

And ends here:


(metro4.hu)
(Tthere are 5 trams on the last pic!)
So is that meant to busy? I took the second shot on a Sunday afternoon ... note the maintenance vehicle in the rear.

]

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Old February 27th, 2010, 06:35 AM   #204
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Melbourne’s tram network is now the largest in the world in terms of operational track length (after St Petersburg recently removed some track from its network). The network includes around 240 kilometres of double track, 475 trams and 1,813 tram stops. Trams operated along 27 routes and carried 150 million passengers in 2006-07 (the highest level for several decades).
No idea when this was wrote, or if things have since changed.... but it puts Melbourne as #1 tram city.
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Old February 28th, 2010, 01:33 PM   #205
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I love Melbournes trams.

They're nice and easy. And unlike alot of other places the olds ones have been restored.
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Old March 3rd, 2010, 02:47 AM   #206
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Minneapolis used to have an extensive streetcar system, which was bought by GM and the tracks were paved over. The cars themselves are currently in use in Mexico city I believe.

map:
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Old March 3rd, 2010, 11:50 AM   #207
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The demise of the world's street car systems is criminal.

We should sue the big car companies for ******* up our cities so badly (luckily, mine kept its tram network though).
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:45 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
The demise of the world's street car systems is criminal.

We should sue the big car companies for ******* up our cities so badly (luckily, mine kept its tram network though).
yeah, unfortunately GM is owned by the US government now, so suing would be kind of redundant
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #209
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For our pro-tram-in-Groningen-website I made a tram map of our city in 1925. At that time there were four tram lines within the city (100.000 inh.) and three tram lines to towns and villages in the surroundings. The numbers in the map right correspond with the numbers of the pictures in the article "Pictures: the Community Tram Groningen" (in Dutch).

Currently Groningen has 190.000 inhabitants and there are plans to reintroduce the tram in 2014.

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Old June 15th, 2010, 04:17 AM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimethyltryptamine View Post
No idea when this was wrote, or if things have since changed.... but it puts Melbourne as #1 tram city.
We hear a lot of this chest-beating in Australia but I think it's not so true!

I am trying a different angle here, one not so easy - patronage ("ridership" in American English!). Patronage is more important because it shows the job the trams are actually doing (carrying passengers). I have been trying to find cities with trams/light rail carrying more than 100 million a year. It's difficult as there are variables in statistics, some statistics are out of date, others are simply wrong (I suspect calculating by multiplying daily patronage by 365 sometimes doesn't give the right result). But here goes....!

(Anybody is welcome to contribute improvements to this list and the figures. Note that population figures for cities are whole metropolitan area - again open to interpretation of course)


1. Moscow: tram 3.6 bill, 418 route km
popn 10.5 mill

2. Prague: tram 380 mill, 141 route km
popn 1.9 mill

3. Budapest: tram 364 mill, 156 route km
popn 2.5 mill

4. Warsaw: tram 270 mill, 120 route km
popn 3.3 mill

5. Vienna: tram 240 mill, 240 route km
popn 2.3 mill

6. Melbourne: tram 180 mill, 250 route km
popn 4 mill

7. Berlin: tram 171 mill, 192 route km
popn 5 mill

8. Gotenburg: tram 140 mill, 144 route km
popn 425,000

9. Amsterdam: tram 130 mill, 138 route km
popn 2.2 mill

10. Stuttgart: tram (stadtbahn) 130 mill, 192 route km
popn 550,000

Some background information also in this thread:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=65822
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Last edited by historyworks; June 15th, 2010 at 04:28 AM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 12:15 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
1. Moscow: tram 3.6 bill, 418 route km
popn 10.5 mill

2. Prague: tram 380 mill, 141 route km
popn 1.9 mill

3. Budapest: tram 364 mill, 156 route km
popn 2.5 mill

4. Warsaw: tram 270 mill, 120 route km
popn 3.3 mill

5. Vienna: tram 240 mill, 240 route km
popn 2.3 mill

6. Melbourne: tram 180 mill, 250 route km
popn 4 mill

7. Berlin: tram 171 mill, 192 route km
popn 5 mill

8. Gotenburg: tram 140 mill, 144 route km
popn 425,000

9. Amsterdam: tram 130 mill, 138 route km
popn 2.2 mill

10. Stuttgart: tram (stadtbahn) 130 mill, 192 route km
popn 550,000
The marked numbers are obviously wrong.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 11:00 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The marked numbers are obviously wrong.
Well, according to Czech Statistical Bureau, the population of Prague / Prague Metropolitan Area is:

Prague City Proper: 1 249 026 (31.12.2009)
Prague Functional City Region (=urban agglomeration): 1 350 098 (2001)
Prague Development Area (=metropolitan area): 1 662 905 (2001)

as stated here

http://www.czso.cz/xa/edicniplan.nsf...zivnich_vztahu

http://www.czso.cz/xa/redakce.nsf/i/home

According to European Union Erostat´s data, the Prague Larger Urban Zone had population of 1 964 750 in 2001. More about this is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larger_Urban_Zones

It is an open question what is to be called a "metropolitan area". I´d consider the Eurostat´s Larger Urban Zone as a solid and standardized basis, however, in the case of Prague, i think that more appropriate numbers are those from Czech Statistical Bureau. They took into account the green region from this map:

http://www.czso.cz/xa/edicniplan.nsf...ni%20uzemi.jpg

This region has some very significant economical and functional connections to Prague, thus can be called "metropolitan area". Cities from this area are practically suburbs of Prague, many of it´s inhabitants commute to Prague daily and use it´s public transport, including trams.

Last edited by lordtomasCZ; June 16th, 2010 at 11:06 AM.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 12:10 PM   #213
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Don't worry I am happy for any of my figures to be challenged, that's partly why I have made the post - to have the information improved.

The city population figures come from the Wikipedia articles on the respective cities. These articles evidently use, as lordtomasCZ says
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larger_Urban_Zones

I am looking for some common basis for comparison. If somebody has a better basis for city population measurement by all means propose it.

(and I guess on this basis Stuttgart is also wrong)
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Old June 16th, 2010, 08:57 PM   #214
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Keep in mind, Melbourne is also using Metropolitan Area figures, but you never identified that as a problem historyworks.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 01:54 AM   #215
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Keep in mind, Melbourne is also using Metropolitan Area figures, but you never identified that as a problem historyworks.
Yes I didn't mention Melbourne because Australian cities are different - they tend to have few people living in the city centre proper, maybe a couple of hundred thousand in Sydney and Melbourne, though this is slowly changing. Australian cities are very suburbanised so the population figure given is always for the greater metropolitan area.

However I am more interested in having the tram patronage figures challenged/refined. The city populations were thrown in merely as a rough guide. There is also another variable that in some cities trams play a more significant role than others so the tram figures cannot be extrapolated into an indication of total public transport patronage in a city. This is just about patronage of tram/light rail systems. (And I won't go into definitions of light rail/stadtbahn/heavy rail and where one ends and the other starts!)

(It could also be argued that trams often serve only the inner area of a city so the population of that area is the relevant one, rather than the greater metropolitan area. In a compact city like Prague the trams probably serve much of "Prague Functional City Region (=urban agglomeration): 1 350 098 (2001)" whereas in Melbourne they may only serve the inner population of maybe 1.5 million out of 4 million - just guessing here.)
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Old June 17th, 2010, 06:36 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
Yes I didn't mention Melbourne because Australian cities are different - they tend to have few people living in the city centre proper, maybe a couple of hundred thousand in Sydney and Melbourne, though this is slowly changing. Australian cities are very suburbanised so the population figure given is always for the greater metropolitan area.
Sorry, your right. Sometimes I forget, despite coming from Australia and now living in Europe how different we live here. We still have horse and carts and use carrier pigeons in Europe.

No offence, but the differences are only superficial. Basically, a larger urban spread of low density housing. Essentially, everything else regarding the movement of people, i.e. commuting is the same. One should use the same statistic for all cities, whether that is metropolitan area, urban or city proper.

Those trams in Melbourne do not cover the 4million people you describe just like they don't cover the full metropolitan area in the European cities. In Melbourne they use trains to cover the wider area... just like in Europe.

The differences are not as large as you imagine.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 04:14 PM   #217
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Kolkata has the oldest running tram system in Asia. It started in 1902, when India was ruled by british throne. Although, it is not very ultra modern, some of the new tram cars are good. It is the only city in India with trams. Despite attempts of destruction by the government, the tramways have endured all the efforts to demolish the transport system. The trams make this city having the most diversified transport systems in India. People can commute using trams, buses, suburban railways, Metro subways, buses, mini buses and of course taxis and private vehicles in and around the city.
The total length of the tramways is 180.82 Km. City officials are planning to xtend the tram network beyond river hooghly with plans to construct an underwater tram passage for the same.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 04:15 PM   #218
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I love the Melbourne trams!
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Old June 17th, 2010, 04:42 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Sorry, your right. Sometimes I forget, despite coming from Australia and now living in Europe how different we live here. We still have horse and carts and use carrier pigeons in Europe.

No offence, but the differences are only superficial. Basically, a larger urban spread of low density housing. Essentially, everything else regarding the movement of people, i.e. commuting is the same. One should use the same statistic for all cities, whether that is metropolitan area, urban or city proper.

Those trams in Melbourne do not cover the 4million people you describe just like they don't cover the full metropolitan area in the European cities. In Melbourne they use trains to cover the wider area... just like in Europe.

The differences are not as large as you imagine.
So we're saying the same thing. Putting population to rest perhaps we can focus on tram patronage figures!
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Old June 18th, 2010, 02:12 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anshul View Post
Kolkata has the oldest running tram system in Asia. It started in 1902, when India was ruled by british throne. Although, it is not very ultra modern, some of the new tram cars are good. It is the only city in India with trams. Despite attempts of destruction by the government, the tramways have endured all the efforts to demolish the transport system. The trams make this city having the most diversified transport systems in India. People can commute using trams, buses, suburban railways, Metro subways, buses, mini buses and of course taxis and private vehicles in and around the city.
The total length of the tramways is 180.82 Km. City officials are planning to xtend the tram network beyond river hooghly with plans to construct an underwater tram passage for the same.
Thank you Anshul. Is that 180.82 route km or track km? And do you have statistic for patronage? Also do you have any similar information on other large tram systems in India?
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