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Old July 17th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basel_CH View Post
The people don`t use the same tram numbers. Each tram number is an independent one. There is a political history between the two tram companies, but they have independent lines, and there is no subtraction necessary. I update the list, like it reflects the facts, if you don`t agree, come to Basel to visit the place or read the mentioned website (link) in detal.
You're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you. I told you why you can't just add those numbers. The website you linked gives you plenty of hints why you can't add it up. Yet, you still do it. Maybe you just grow up and learn a few things before you bother us again with your self-inflated numbers.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 04:19 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
You're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you. I told you why you can't just add those numbers. The website you linked gives you plenty of hints why you can't add it up. Yet, you still do it. Maybe you just grow up and learn a few things before you bother us again with your self-inflated numbers.
Admittedly this does make counting quite difficult in a number of places with more than a single operator of the rail system. I wonder how they count ridership on the Tokyo Subway system between the two companies - TOEI and Tokyo Metro given that one has to pass through a transit gate between operators? Is this counted as one ride when one passes through a transit gate or is it counted as a new ride?
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Old July 17th, 2012, 05:45 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I wonder how they count ridership on the Tokyo Subway system between the two companies - TOEI and Tokyo Metro given that one has to pass through a transit gate between operators? Is this counted as one ride when one passes through a transit gate or is it counted as a new ride?
It is counted as 2 rides. You need a new ticket when you transfer between operators.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 07:39 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I know Gothenburg operates both under the same branding as part of one network - the key buses even appear on the tram map.
Thats makes the statistic much more difficult than thought. But for me it was clear that some cities listed it can not only be the tram traffic counts but takes all public passengern in the focus.
And from a general approach I think the most tram networks can not count each passenger individually, because you don`t have to stamp your ticket. Mostly there are traffic areas, where a ticket can be used, either on bus or tram, so I would make a bigger question mark on several numbers.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Basel_CH View Post
Thats makes the statistic much more difficult than thought. But for me it was clear that some cities listed it can not only be the tram traffic counts but takes all public passengern in the focus.
And from a general approach I think the most tram networks can not count each passenger individually, because you don`t have to stamp your ticket. Mostly there are traffic areas, where a ticket can be used, either on bus or tram, so I would make a bigger question mark on several numbers.
No, in Gothenburg and in nearly all other cities, it is easy to measure patronage as each time you board a vehicle or change modes you have to swipe your pass/show your ticket/buy a new ticket again, therefore if you transfer between tram and bus then you have taken two trips - one on tram and one on bus. The patronage quoted in that post that listed Gothenburg's patronage was for only the tram system, not the whole public transport network.

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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
It is counted as 2 rides. You need a new ticket when you transfer between operators.
That is what I thought, the thing that made me ask though is that in Tokyo they do have special "transfer" gates where you can swipe your suica/pasmo and then go to the next line as a transfer. I wondered, therefore, whether these separate gates still recorded a trip or a transfer and thus didn't count it as a full trip.
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Old July 17th, 2012, 10:47 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Admittedly this does make counting quite difficult in a number of places with more than a single operator of the rail system. I wonder how they count ridership on the Tokyo Subway system between the two companies - TOEI and Tokyo Metro given that one has to pass through a transit gate between operators? Is this counted as one ride when one passes through a transit gate or is it counted as a new ride?
You calculate the numbers of passengers changing between metro lines of different operators by extrapolating of samples. Patronage in open systems are always determined that way. I just doubt that there is anyone willing to carry the expenditure of figuring out the combined patronage for the two metro operators in Tokyo alone. In case of Tokyo it is more likely that a total patronage is submitted including metro services by JR and other mainline operators if at all.
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Old July 18th, 2012, 05:09 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
That is what I thought, the thing that made me ask though is that in Tokyo they do have special "transfer" gates where you can swipe your suica/pasmo and then go to the next line as a transfer. I wondered, therefore, whether these separate gates still recorded a trip or a transfer and thus didn't count it as a full trip.
Correct. You pass through those gates to reach the other operator's train platform. This transfer incurs a higher fare than going on the same operator all the way, although there is a discount for transferring to the other operator : http://www.tokyometro.jp/en/ticket/t...ion/index.html
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Old July 19th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #248
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Have Silesian Tram Lines already been mentioned here?

According to polish wiki, the system has 90 km of single tracks and 111 of double tracks, plus 24 km of tracks in tramyards.

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Old July 26th, 2012, 01:01 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post

Toronto 305.8 km
Milan 287.0 km
Bucharest 286.0 km
Melbourne 250.0 km
Brussels 222.0 km
St. Petersburg 220.0 km
Amsterdam 213.0 km
Berlin 191.6 km
Turin 180.0 km
Budapest 158.0 km

Is this right so far?
Gothenburg 161.0 km
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Old July 26th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #250
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I really wish Moscow would get modern tram cars with modern designs, improve its infrastructure (replace tracks, upgrade stops), become disabled-friendly, and expand!
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 12:59 AM   #251
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I've just caught up with this thread. My thanks to several of you guys for providing new figures (whether disputed or not!).
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 06:53 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Hong Kong has a light rail network that operates in the northwestern suburbs. Per government statistics (http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/f.../transport.pdf), the daily patronage is 430,000 passengers over 36km of track. That translates to 157 million passengers a year.
NO, sorry. For public transit (and all kinds of transports), annual patronage is NEVER daily patronage x 365.
It's less . Even in HK ..
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Last edited by nanar; August 3rd, 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old August 3rd, 2012, 09:34 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
NO, sorry. For public transit (and all kinds of transports), annual patronage is NEVER daily patronage x 365.
It's less . Even in HK ..
counterpoint, yes HKskyline's method it is valid. After digging around at the MTR official patronage site

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrela...age.php#search

The method they use is monthly total/day=daily average.

where you went wrong is annual patronage is NEVER daily weekday patronage x 365.

but annual patronage is IS average daily patronage x 365.
because average daily patronage = annual / 365
if assuming the definition of daily patronage is weekdays and weekends added to the average

simple math. very specific definitions.

Last edited by saiho; August 3rd, 2012 at 09:50 PM. Reason: missing term
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Old August 4th, 2012, 12:00 AM   #254
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Very true. Average "weekday" patronage is more common in North America from what I've seen than the rest of the world.
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Old August 4th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #255
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Septa has about 50 miles of Urban & Suburban Trolley lines , 45 miles are double tracked and 5 miles are single tracked....by 2020 the system will be restored to 70 miles and by 2035 restored and expanded to 104 miles. It currently carries about 120,000 daily passengers up from 80,000 a few years ago. Septa expects ridership to increase with redevelopment along the Urban Trolley system in West Philly and some Suburban development.
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Old August 4th, 2012, 02:03 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
counterpoint, yes HKskyline's method it is valid. After digging around at the MTR official patronage site

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrela...age.php#search

The method they use is monthly total/day=daily average.
Look at the numbers of MTR lines :

june 2012 : 113,953 / 4,033 = 28, 255 days (not 30)
may 2012 : 118,293 / 4,003 = 29,551 days (not 31)
april 2012 : 107,769 / 3,968 = 27,159 days (not 30)
march 2012 : 119,956 / 4,034 = 29,73 days (not 31)
Febr 2012 : 112,824 / 4,049 = 27,864 days (not 29)
Janu 2012 : 114,748 / 4,076 = 28,152 days (not 31)

So, it can't be 365 days (or 366 in year 2012). It's less. Even in HK

Generaly, the Transports Authorities give a week-day patronage,
and more (in France), not on mondays (lot of stores are closed), not on wednesday (schools are closed), not on saturday (clerk officers don't work but some go shopping)...
not during ferial times, not during summer times (at less in Europe : actually, half of the population of my city / Lyon/ gets holidays elsewhere),

(The knowledge of weekday patronage - and MORE, Peak Hours patronage - is important to know how many vehicules - trains, bus, ... are needed)

So - at less in Europe - annual patronage = circa 250 weekday patronage.
The Transport Authorities rarely count precisely all the days, during the whole year : It's needs lot of people and systems to count, and it would be very expensive to do that everyday. So they just count some days in the year, then used statistics tools to get the annual results.

And so, you CAN'T do exact comparisons, even with oficial data, because there is not a worldwide way to count (and I don't speak about Wikipedia data )
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Last edited by nanar; October 11th, 2015 at 11:12 AM.
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Old August 4th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
Look at the numbers of MTR lines :

june 2012 : 113,953 / 4,033 = 28, 255 days (not 30)
may 2012 : 118,293 / 4,003 = 29,551 days (not 31)
april 2012 : 107,769 / 3,968 = 27,159 days (not 30)
march 2012 : 119,956 / 4,034 = 29,73 days (not 31)
Febr 2012 : 112,824 / 4,049 = 27,864 days (not 29)
Janu 2012 : 114,748 / 4,076 = 28,152 days (not 31)

So, it can't be 365 days (or 366 in year 2012). It's less. Even in HK

Generaly, the Transports Authorities give a week-day patronage,
and more (in France), not on mondays (lot of stores are closed), not on wednesday (schools are closed), not on saturday (clerk officers don't work but some go shopping)...
not during ferial times, not during summer times (at less in Europe : actually, half of the population of my city / Lyon/ gets holidays elsewhere),

(The knowledge of weekday patronage - and MORE, Peak Hours patronage - is important to know how many vehicules - trains, bus, ... are needed)

So - at less in Europe - annual patronage = circa 250 weekday patronage.
The Transport Authorities rarely count precisely all the days, during the whole year : It's needs lot of people and systems to count, and it would be very expensive to do that everyday. So they just count some days in the year, then used statistics tools to get the annual results.

And so, you CAN'T do exact comparisons, even with oficial data, because there is not a worldwide way to count (and I don't speak about Wikipedia data )
Well, the government source provided the figure as daily patronage, not weekday daily patronage.

From the MTR's 2011 annual report, the total light rail patronage was 161 million.

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrela...rpt_e/E109.pdf

The government source I quoted likely used 2010 figures. From the MTR's 2010 annual report, the total light rail patronage was 154 million.

http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/investrela...rpt_e/E118.pdf

Guess my estimate was not too far off multiplying by 365.
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Old August 4th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
Look at the numbers of MTR lines :

june 2012 : 113,953 / 4,033 = 28, 255 days (not 30)
may 2012 : 118,293 / 4,003 = 29,551 days (not 31)
april 2012 : 107,769 / 3,968 = 27,159 days (not 30)
march 2012 : 119,956 / 4,034 = 29,73 days (not 31)
Febr 2012 : 112,824 / 4,049 = 27,864 days (not 29)
Janu 2012 : 114,748 / 4,076 = 28,152 days (not 31)

So, it can't be 365 days (or 366 in year 2012). It's less. Even in HK
Well MTR fully stated on the chart its subway lines are in avg. weekday as opposed to daily avg. on it's other modes. We are talking about the LRT portion which is in daily avg.
airport express
june 2012 : 1020/34 = 30
may 2012 : 1063/34.3 = ~31
etc.
I assume that it is because the MTR's LRT, airport express, etc. is less affected by commuter spikes so daily avg. is more applicable. Also note that its not that off the highest deviation is 3 days. Based on accuracy its:

(| theoretical-actual |/theoretical)*100

so is at most 9% (Janu 2012) off and at least 4% (Febr 2012) off. So its off which everyone knows it will be but its off by not much as this is HK. the MTR is profitable on its rail operations for a reason


Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
So - at less in Europe - annual patronage = circa 250 weekday patronage.
The Transport Authorities rarely count precisely all the days, during the whole year : It's needs lot of people and systems to count, and it would be very expensive to do that everyday. So they just count some days in the year, then used statistics tools to get the annual results.
well the MTR's fare collection system is entirely computerized with a majority using the octopus smartcard and the rest uses vending machines. Considering the info is right there and you can pinpoint the exact number with no rounding on an exact month it seems the MTR does put some system resources to count and given the level of automation it should be fairly routine. If it was generated by by stats software or methods then it would be rounded because of digits of uncertainty. That being said it can't be exactly that number and I doubt its counting system perfect but I think given the set up it should be pretty darn close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanar View Post
And so, you CAN'T do exact comparisons, even with oficial data, because there is not a worldwide way to count (and I don't speak about Wikipedia data )
I think that’s the reason for this whole thread, to find a standard way to rank tram cities though like largest city, etc. there is a lot of estimating. I think HKskylines stat is valid and quite close to the real usage even while you get extrapolations and even eyeballing in the other patronage stats of tram systems in the US, Europe, etc.
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Old August 5th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #259
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people
can anybody answer an off-topic question?
alstom citadis 402 is 43.7m length...is this the longest vehicle or is there any longer vehicle?

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/...tramway/664720
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Old August 6th, 2012, 02:05 AM   #260
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The city transport company of Budapest has ordered 40 Combino Supra Budapest NF 12B units. The six-module trams (three units of two carbody sections) are 53.99 meters long, a world record for passenger trams (only exceeded by the 59.4 m CarGoTram of Dresden). They have been nicknamed óriáshernyó (meaning 'giant caterpillar').
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The tram length can be anywhere from two sections (18 meters) to eight (72 meters).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avenio


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...n_Budapest.JPG
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