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Old February 11th, 2014, 02:51 PM   #301
Minato ku
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75.7 km and 6 lines.
The T5 wasn't open in 2012, so it is not included in the ridership data.

Anyway I don't see why we should exclude Translohr, it is more a tram than a bus.
Translohr can't run without rail.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #302
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Thank you.
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Old February 11th, 2014, 05:30 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Where is Paris?
I think Milan is also missing

Unfortunately ATM (Milan transportation authority) doesn't provide the tram network passengers data, or at least I couldn't find 'em

They just provide the whole network data (metro+tram+trolleybus+bus)
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Old February 11th, 2014, 06:40 PM   #304
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Actually on these nice maps of Milan network I found out some figures. Daily passengers on so called 'metrotranvie' (actually tramways with most of the route segregated) and the rest of the tram network.
To be honest there is not many difference between the first and the second ones.

Anyway it's 109.830 pass./day + 177.570 pass./day = 287.400 pass./day

That means 104.901.000 passengers per year


Quote:
Originally Posted by meteoforumitalia View Post
NUCLEO URBANO (dimensioni originali: http://imageshack.com/a/img812/51/bjxj.jpg):




AREA METROPOLITANA (dimensioni originali: http://imageshack.com/a/img850/2289/nx39.jpg):

Those are the data based on CityRailways website maps http://www.cityrailways.it/geomap/ but I cant' tell which is their source
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Old February 11th, 2014, 10:12 PM   #305
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I know about Milan. I have to check it out a bit more. Sometimes daily patronage figures don't necessarily add up to annual simply by multiplying by 365. In some cities these figures are weekday.
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Old February 12th, 2014, 07:34 AM   #306
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Quote:
Anyway I don't see why we should exclude Translohr
Because it is not tram, it is Translohr.
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Old February 13th, 2014, 07:24 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
I have updated my list of major world tram statistics from new input from some 2012 annual reports. Any feedback is most welcome.
For Moscow it is not the greater area, it is the city itself. Greater area is much bigger.
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Old February 13th, 2014, 08:31 AM   #308
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The population of Moscow city (within its current administrative borders) is 12.1 million residents, not 10.5 million. Greater area is much bigger (about 15.5 million residents).
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Old February 13th, 2014, 05:36 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Because it is not tram, it is Translohr.
The Translohr is a tram. The only difference with a "standard" tram is that traction is provided by rubber tyres.

It cannot be considered as a bus because :
- It has no steering control, it is rail guided on its entire length and do not require license plate and it is not subjet to the same road rules as buses;
- Like a standard tram, power is provided by a single wire catenary : The return of the electric current done via the guiding rail. Trolleybusses require two wires because of the lack of rails;
- Like a standard tram, it needs much narrower lanes than buses, thanks to the guiding rail.
- Like a standard tram, because it is guided, it can be much longer than a bus (even a double articulated bus). Longest translohr trainsets can be up to 46 meters long (6 cars);
- Like a standard tram, it is bi-derectional : trainsets have a cab at each end;
- Like a standard tram, trainsets can be coupled;

Saying the Translohr cannot be considered as a tram because it has rubber tyres is like saying that Line 14 of the Paris metro cannot be considered as a metro because it is rubber tyred, for example. However, both are rail guided transit systems that serve the same purpose of their respective steel wheeled equivalents.
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Old February 17th, 2014, 08:00 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlekseyVT View Post
The population of Moscow city (within its current administrative borders) is 12.1 million residents, not 10.5 million. Greater area is much bigger (about 15.5 million residents).
Many Europeans think that administratively Moscow is something a little bigger than just the center and all around are just suburbs and satellite cities. That's not correct.

But the way, if I'm right, tram lines exist only within Moscow administrative borders. As of its greater area, there are no tram lines beyond the borders, are there?
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Old February 17th, 2014, 10:18 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros Matou View Post
The Translohr is a tram. The only difference with a "standard" tram is that traction is provided by rubber tyres.

Which makes it not a tram, but a Translohr.


"A cat is a dog, because the only difference is one barks and the other meows, they both bite and scratch!".

No, a cat is a cat.
A Translohr is a Translohr.
In fact, the Translohr could best be described as a guided trolley bus... or a Frankenstein's monster.

Your comparison with metro makes no sense, as what constitutes a metro depends more heavily on things like grade separation, frequency, capacity, etc.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 02:07 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Which makes it not a tram, but a Translohr.


"A cat is a dog, because the only difference is one barks and the other meows, they both bite and scratch!".

No, a cat is a cat.
A Translohr is a Translohr.
In fact, the Translohr could best be described as a guided trolley bus... or a Frankenstein's monster.

Your comparison with metro makes no sense, as what constitutes a metro depends more heavily on things like grade separation, frequency, capacity, etc.
Translohr is a corporative name. It's like saying "Kleenex" instead of paper tissue.

The goal of a Translohr tram is the same as a steel wheeled tram. Both are right rail transit and share the same characteristics (capacity, grade separation possibilities, operation, train coupling), except for the materials used for the wheels and the number of rails used.

The Translohr may look weird, but it is operated like a tram, and should be considered as a tram.
Just like a monorail operating like a metro is part of a metro network (Sao Paulo, Kuala Lumpur).
Or a monorail operating like a high speed train would be part of a high speed rail network.


Bombardier's TVR, on the other hand, is really a guided trolley bus. The vehicle can operate without central rail as the operator has steering control, and thus requires a licence plate and is subject to standard road regulations, unlike trams (steel wheeled and Translohr) and is much more limitated than Translohr.
Also, the TVR is limited in length and cannot operate in multiple units like a tram (Translohr or steel wheeled tram) and thus has a much lower capacity than Translohr or any orther form of light rail transit for that matter.
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Old February 18th, 2014, 07:57 PM   #313
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I agree with you that Translohr is a tram.

But I think using it in addition to a traditional tram web is a mistake (I like more traditional tram even for new tram webs, anyway) because you can't integrate 'em in the web.
On Translohr tracks you can just use Translohr, on traditional tram tracks you can just use traditional trams.
In that way even using traditional tram lines with different gauge is a mistake

Ok, Paris lines are mainly separated and do not form a true web, but with the extensions planned they will and the branches of Translohr remain out of a possible 'interaction' with the rest of the lines

And there is another problem with translohr on managing the web.
As you said it's a corporative system, which means that a mantainer has to call on Translohr corporation for all its needings; new vehicles, new tracks, new replacement parts.
Conversely with a traditional tram system you has dozens of suppliers you can call
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Old February 18th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #314
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Even the average tram lines of Paris are necessarily not compatible with the other.
Porte de Versailles is a transfer station between the T2 and T3a.
But the track of both lines remains unconnected.
T3 trams are too wide for the T2 and T2 trams are too long for the T3.

Except for the T3a and T3b which are basically the same line (T3) cut in two after the big extension of December 2012 due of the length, every line has its own rolling stock, its own infrastructures, its own yards...

Add the isolated lines, the Translohr lines, the new tram expresss line (new name of the Tram train lines under in construction or planned using the former Grande Ceinture big belt railway line, all are unconnected) and you will understand that Paris will not have a real interconnected tram network before a very long time.

We will have a big number of km and one of the highest ridership in Europe but not a true tramway network web.
The workday ridership has jumped from 400,000 in 2011 to 700,000 today.
We had 114 million passengers in 2011, using the same ratio, this means about 200 million today.
The answer with the 2013 and 2014 data.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 01:29 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
We will have a big number of km and one of the highest ridership in Europe but not a true tramway network web.
The workday ridership has jumped from 400,000 in 2011 to 700,000 today.
We had 114 million passengers in 2011, using the same ratio, this means about 200 million today.
The answer with the 2013 and 2014 data.
When you have an official updated annual ridership figure I would be grateful to hear about it thank you. Unfortunately weekday figures are often not weekly averages and cannot simply be multiplied by 365. It's a trap I have to watch out for in compiling these figures. It's the annual figure I need.

Last time I reopened this thread there was an argument about population figures. This time it is an argument about Translohr. I wonder what I will get next time.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 11:06 AM   #316
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Yes I know, 400,000 multiplied by 365 doesn't make 114 million and 700,000 mutiplied by 365 doesn't make 200 million.
I even wrote workday to notify that it was not just the average daily ridership (not including weekends and holidays).
Because I have no data, I wrote 'the answer with the ridership of 2013 and 2014'.
So keep the last number we have, the ridership of 2012.
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Old February 19th, 2014, 12:01 PM   #317
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Thanks. Yes I understood that you mean workday.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 03:59 PM   #318
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Leipzig should surely be on the list of top 20 largest tram networks.

I've seen these figures given for the two large Sachsen cities:

Dresden: 144 million passengers per year, 134.2km network

Leipzig: 134.2 million passengers per year, 148.3km network

The network kms are from Schwandl's Tram Atlas Deutschland.

The passenger numbers are from a Youtube video, and are not up-to-date, and may be inaccurate. But in any case, figures for Leipzig and Dresden are probably comparable.

That area of Germany must be a paradise for tram lovers. Not only Dresden and Leipzig, but also Halle. All with extensive tram networks, with many different types of trams.

And each system with a different track gauge - Halle 1000 mm, Dresden 1450 mm, Leipzig 1458 mm - none with standard gauge!
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 07:29 AM   #319
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Thank you Frank H. I'll check them out. I think I did check them when I first did this table but of course now I'm reviewing. Thanks for the reminder.
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Old September 10th, 2014, 02:57 AM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
When you have an official updated annual ridership figure I would be grateful to hear about it thank you.
The figure of 2013 have been published for Paris tram.
190 million passengers in 2013, an increase of 65.9% compared with 2012.

Note that the figure of 2014 will likely be higher. T5 opened in August 2013 and T7 in November 2013, so these two lines didn't make the whole year of 2013.
Two new lines (T6 and T8) will open at the end of 2014 (december) but this will not make a great difference on the 2014 ridership data, we will have to wait for the data of 2015.
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