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Old August 7th, 2008, 03:07 PM   #61
isaidso
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When people state single track, does that mean if there's one track going in each direction, they are both counted even though it's the same route? Regardless, it sounds like a big system you've got there in Sofia.

Here's some more Toronto streetcar info I found:

There are 11 routes concentrated in the downtown core. The TTC operate 248 streetcars, but will be phasing them out in favour of 204 new and larger LRVs. The current model has capacity of 65 people. There are some articulated versions that hold 100. Unlike newer light rail transit (LRT) systems, most of Toronto's streetcar routes operate in the classic style on street trackage shared with car traffic, and streetcars stop on demand at frequent stops like buses rather than having fixed stations. There are 1347 coded stops so far. I couldn't find data on the final tally since the process was ongoing when the article was printed.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...o-get-off.aspx

Last edited by isaidso; August 7th, 2008 at 03:48 PM.
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Old August 7th, 2008, 03:32 PM   #62
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Amsterdam

-236 trams (most have a capacity of 180 people, the older ones can transport 144)
-25 light rail trams (which can each transport 254 people)
-2 depots (for normal trams only)
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Old August 7th, 2008, 03:42 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by city_thing View Post
I love this new Luas system, the trams are class.

There's two lines in Dublin isn't there? I remember reading that they don't connect though, so you have to walk from the end of one line to the beginning of the next one. Is that true?
Yes, there are two lines and no transfer point (see map). The network is 25 km long, not 20!
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Old August 7th, 2008, 03:50 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wuppeltje View Post
Amsterdam

-236 trams (most have a capacity of 180 people, the older ones can transport 144)
-25 light rail trams (which can each transport 254 people)
-2 depots (for normal trams only)
Looks like your trams are much bigger than the ones that ply Toronto streets.
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Old August 7th, 2008, 04:00 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wuppeltje View Post
Amsterdam

-236 trams (most have a capacity of 180 people, the older ones can transport 144)
-25 light rail trams (which can each transport 254 people)
-2 depots (for normal trams only)
Capacity depends on standard of calculation you take: for standing passengers it can vary from 4 pax/ sq m (quite light) through 6 (for me probable max) to 8 (rather impossible, imagine 8 people in a phone booth or so). So the mode of calculation can add 100 places to a tram or railcar without stretching it
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Old August 7th, 2008, 04:37 PM   #66
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Well I took the official capacity numbers that are given by the transport companies. The most comon tram used is almost 30m long (5 parts) and 2,4m wide. It has 60 seats. But if you only take the walking corridor which would be around 25m long and 1m wide on average, than we are talking about 5 people/ sq m.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 01:09 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Wuppeltje View Post
My point is that if you count it in this way it hardly adds anything to the track length, and in case of Amsterdam, and probably more cities it says even less.

Further of all it doesn't seems to be clear either, because I see already several people giving the total line length for each line from A to B and back, which says far more to compare it to my opinion.
Say's far more? How does how many tracks make a difference in distance for when you travel? It's like measuring road distances by how many lanes. Tracks (like lanes in a road) is an important measure for frequencies and congestion, however it has no effect on network lengths.

Besides, why mention this "there and back" thing. Not everyone goes back exactly the same way they travelled earlier. They may take a different route to their next destination.

At the end of the day, either everyone measures in route length or track length. Route length would give a realistic measurement of how big the network is for passenger movement. Give me one advantage of track length over route length for the general public in measuring networks.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 02:26 AM   #68
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Line 4 in Amsterdam has the shortest route in Amsterdam with 6,1 km. It is a fully double track line (so 12,2 km track), although there is 1 hard point where they have to wait for each other.

Sections
1: On the first section not only line 4 is running, but also lines 9, 16, 24 and 25.
2: line 14 joins (during the day 34 trams are running on this section)
3: line 16, 24 and 25 leaving
4: only line 4 is running
5: line 25 back on the line.
6: only line 4 again.

So this route would be 6,1km. If I want to add lines 9, 14, 16, 24 and 25 to the total route length, I don't add these sections. Sections 1 and 2 are very important with about 30 trams per hour, which his higher than most subway systems. Both route and total track are hardly saying anything, except that they can never run on a single track. If you want to compare Amsterdam more with other cities it is better to count the total line length from A to B and back to A for each line. This to give a better comparison with single track systems and with systems that are running with 1-2 lines on 1 track max.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 11:38 AM   #69
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what a wonderful pics
but I am sure India can never come up with such infrastructure.......
bad luck .. INDIANS
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Old August 8th, 2008, 02:49 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidya View Post
what a wonderful pics
but I am sure India can never come up with such infrastructure.......
bad luck .. INDIANS
New Delhi Metro?
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Old August 8th, 2008, 04:09 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vidya View Post
what a wonderful pics
but I am sure India can never come up with such infrastructure.......
bad luck .. INDIANS
Excuse me...??? Are you sure you got your tense correct here??

Trams were never in serious contention as a model of transport because of many reasons. Large no of two-wheelers were one reason...their narrow wheels were very often getting caught in the grooves of the rails. Look at Calcutta for an example.

Local trains and metros have become the preferred option now.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 04:30 PM   #72
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A tram is more for something between a bus and a metro. In India I see more future in large subway systems.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 06:32 PM   #73
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Quote:
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No, the route length is the passenger travel length between A & B of a single line (regardless of number of tracks), If another say from C to D uses a portion of A & B's line, that shared portion is only counted once.
The route length is the length of the route A-B plus the route C-D.

The track length is the length of A-B, plus C-D, minus the shared portions.

The track length is more useful. Just like Geneva's network:

http://www.tpg.ch/_zoomify/tpg_plan_ligne_tram.pdf (PDF)

Every branch of this network has at least two lines, sometimes three, so the route length is more than the double of track length!

Circular routes with two number must be counted as one (like 29/30 in Milan: 29 anticlockwise, 30 clockwise).

(the shortest network are the ones of Tacoma, or Sevilla, about 1.6 km/1 mile with three or four vehicles only)
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Old August 8th, 2008, 08:42 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Say's far more? How does how many tracks make a difference in distance for when you travel? It's like measuring road distances by how many lanes. Tracks (like lanes in a road) is an important measure for frequencies and congestion, however it has no effect on network lengths.

Besides, why mention this "there and back" thing. Not everyone goes back exactly the same way they travelled earlier. They may take a different route to their next destination.

At the end of the day, either everyone measures in route length or track length. Route length would give a realistic measurement of how big the network is for passenger movement. Give me one advantage of track length over route length for the general public in measuring networks.
It is irrelevant whether there is no advantage in track length. We have to compare networks by many measures as long as the data base is so inconsistent as it is at the moment.

A tram network can be measured by three different length. The length of tracks, of route and the sum of each operated line. All of these length say something about a tram network. And help to figure out which city has the most extensive network. However, these three different length must not be confused. Something that already happened in this thread. So if you have a length of a tram network, please tell us what specific item has been measured.
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Old August 8th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #75
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Interesting thread. Lost my bag on tuesday in the tram in Amsterdam
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Old August 9th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The route length is the length of the route A-B plus the route C-D.
and only counting one portion of any shared routes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The track length is the length of A-B, plus C-D, minus the shared portions.
No, Track length is the length of each track. So it makes no difference if 3 lines use two tracks, that length will only be counted once anyway (once for each track that is)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The track length is more useful. Just like Geneva's network:
It seems like you are confusing route length and track length, as your description of track length more closely follows route length. In that case, you are correct. However, what you write is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Every branch of this network has at least two lines, sometimes three, so the route length is more than the double of track length!
See above, you are confusing the definitions.
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Old August 9th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
It is irrelevant whether there is no advantage in track length. We have to compare networks by many measures as long as the data base is so inconsistent as it is at the moment.
Actually, it is not irrelevant. One should always in this case compare the most logical definition. If Track length has less advantages than route length, then obviously it is illogical to use this method and what method we use is thus relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
A tram network can be measured by three different length. The length of tracks, of route and the sum of each operated line. All of these length say something about a tram network. And help to figure out which city has the most extensive network. However, these three different length must not be confused. Something that already happened in this thread. So if you have a length of a tram network, please tell us what specific item has been measured.
I have not heard of this third method you mentioned, but am interested. By sum of each line, what exactly do you mean?
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Old August 9th, 2008, 09:57 PM   #78
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What about Moscow tram network? I heard some number of 400+ km...
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Old August 10th, 2008, 01:47 AM   #79
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^
2008 data
263,3 mln. passengers
886 cars
432,5 km
41 routes
http://mos.ru/?documentId=110737
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Old August 10th, 2008, 03:01 AM   #80
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I dont know the length of Oslo tram network, but its quite big for just a city with 500 000.

image hosted on flickr


There is also metro, which is marked as (T) on that map.
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