Seattle Area Traffic and Roads Thread - Page 4

bgwah · January 13th, 2009, 05:10 AM

It's Proposal F here: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/fla...ayviaduct.html

The Pike Place-Waterfront connection (F-6) still kind of sucks with this one.

Why can't the Pike Place/Steinbruck Park part look more like G-6?

Seasun · January 13th, 2009, 02:28 PM

The Times shows one larger tunnel under 1st Ave with the traffic stacked. The P-I is showing two tunnels, one under Post and one under Western. I think the 1st Ave version makes more sense in terms of safety and required land rights.

Safety:
If the two separate tunnels were much closer together then cross tunnels would allow for evacuation and more options for air circulation during a fire. The single larger tunnel should allow for much more robust air circ and better options to evacuate to a safer space. Going up and down stairs isn't ideal but it's better than suffocating or burning to a crisp.

Land Rights:
The 1st Ave sketch would seem to use public right-of-way until it hits Belltown. Post Alley is very narrow. Western Ave has decent width. Anyone know if there's a court precedent or some law that limits landowner control of their property beyond a certain depth? Could someone have mineral (mining) rights below someone else's property in this state?

CrazyAboutCities · January 13th, 2009, 05:02 PM

I'm little surprised by this news. I'm still concerned about funding a bored tunnel. I noticed that bored tunnel doesn't included exits to downtown Seattle. Why is that? When will they start construction on bored tunnel?

Aaron W · January 13th, 2009, 07:11 PM

From KOMOnews.com:

Quote:

But one potential stumbling block has already cropped up in the form of an initiative that would prohibit the city from using any public property to construct a tunnel.

Magnolia resident Elizabeth Campbell said she filed the initiative Tuesday morning with the city clerk's office.

"The tunnel, as designed... has pretty much bypassed Queen Anne, Magnolia, Ballard, Crown Hill," she said. "And this is a vital connection for us to go south and come back to our homes."

Campbell has 180 days to gather 18,000 sigantures to put the proposal before the City Council.

The council can enact the construction ban into law, send it for a vote of the people or put two options on the ballot.

If by chance this initiative was successful, wouldn't it also prevent Sound Transit from tunneling north from downtown to UW?

CrazyAboutCities · January 13th, 2009, 07:47 PM

It won't happen. I saw the polls for bored tunnel on Seattletimes.com... The result is changing but it is showing highest percentage of Seattle residents wants bored tunnel.

pwalker · January 13th, 2009, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W

From KOMOnews.com:

If by chance this initiative was successful, wouldn't it also prevent Sound Transit from tunneling north from downtown to UW?

Don't know about UW.

Of course a citizen can file an initiative. And of course someone did. And of course it will slow it down some more. Sea-Tac third runway comes to mind.
This is afterall, Seattle.

CityView Jim · January 13th, 2009, 08:26 PM

I don't think this will slow things down. First she needs 18000 signatures. That's a lot. Then this goes before the council which is pretty much in favor of the tunnel if it can be properly funded. Should it go to a vote, I think tax payers will support the tunnel overall, again given proper financing strategy. I just dont think there are enough Magnolians who care that much to further stall progress. Aside from that, there will be 2-3 years of design and property acquisition.

I'm still intrigued by the logistics of the whole thing. At some point before the tunnel is operational the viaduct will have to come down. How long will Seattle be without a true connection through that area? I eagerly await the design and proposed construction schedule.

CrazyAboutCities · January 13th, 2009, 08:35 PM

I just read the article from Seattletimes.com... That article said they will start construction on bored tunnel in 2011 and will open in 2015. That is little faster than I expected.

jessejb · January 13th, 2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities

I just read the article from Seattletimes.com... That article said they will start construction on bored tunnel in 2011 and will open in 2015. That is little faster than I expected.

Yea Im suprised too. In 6 years we will have no viaduct anymore and a tunnel? rad.

meku · January 13th, 2009, 09:16 PM

The viaduct is supposed to come down in 2012, but I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to stretch it's lifespan to 2014/2015.

The surface street improvements might start as early as next year.

CrazyAboutCities · January 13th, 2009, 09:29 PM

Yeah. I wonder how will they demolish the viaduct? Implosive?

CityView Jim · January 13th, 2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyAboutCities

Yeah. I wonder how will they demolish the viaduct? Implosive?

More likely, delicate disassembly - chunk by chunk.

Black Box · January 14th, 2009, 02:43 AM

I was a bit shocked by this announcement. I can live with it. By the time this project is completed in 2015, 14 years will have passed since the earthquake. 14 whole years! That is too much time. It took 8 years for our region's leaders to make this decision. Ridiculous. That being said, I look forward to the additional time it will take for the waterfront to take shape. 2015-2017 should be something to look forward to. Hope I'm still alive.

RMacherat · January 14th, 2009, 07:01 AM

Me too, Black Box, by my 110th birthday anyway

Guys, there is no way the tunnel will be completed in the mid twenty-teens. Are you forgetting where we live? Think Bus Tunnel II and Journey to the Center of the Earth. I'd hope and pray for 2020. And consider this, by then this bust will be over and we'll be well into another boom, traffic will be unspeakably worse because of the additional half-million new residents and then, whoa, maybe the viaduct wasn't all THAT unsteady after all and we decide not to knock it down. Anything can happen. There could be a quake which somehow demolishes the tunnel and leaves the viaduct standing tall and free. Anyway, the tunnel won't be cute anymore because its shortcomings will have been identified and denounced long before completion. Opponents will have successfully defeated a plan to add two more lanes in each direction for only $9 billion more. All in all though, I'm feeling pretty positive about the whole thing.

jessejb · January 14th, 2009, 05:40 PM

Toll the tunnel. It seems reasonable considering its an express route through the city. I don't think people would complain much.

Seattlelife · January 14th, 2009, 07:34 PM

I was very excited to see the region's decision makers decide on the tunnel. There will be nay sayers for everything, let's hope they don't get in the way of the tunnel at all. As was mentioned before, Seattle is already good enough at delaying projects like this.

No more viaduct (I will miss the view from 99 but imo it wasn't worth the space it took up), a renewed connection to the waterfront and a lot more open space for pedestrians downtown. Awesome!

I wasn't too familiar with the politics of the viaduct replacement. Did anyone else find it a little funny that Gregoire said no to a tunnel during the election then brought the idea back after she was elected. Is there any relation or am I making something out of nothing?

Seattlelife · January 14th, 2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessejb

Toll the tunnel. It seems reasonable considering its an express route through the city. I don't think people would complain much.

I think this should be considered as well.

I've been hearing about potential 520 tolls for years now in order to fund its replacement. Is it ever going to happen? The only toll roads I've ever been on were on the east coast.

RMacherat · January 14th, 2009, 07:52 PM

The original 520 had (reasonable) tolls and actually paid itself off.

CityView Jim · January 14th, 2009, 08:08 PM

I say toll it all. People still have choices and tolls work! Of course, I'm a fan of use-based taxing!! Shouldn't we all be?!

CityView Jim · January 14th, 2009, 08:12 PM

Another thing. I was unaware that work is already underway to move the utilities that hug the viaduct to underground. I'm assuming this is already budgetted for as it is actually being done. Also scheduled to get underway this year is the south end of the viaduct work (replacing south of King Street with a side-by-side surface option.

These things were planned out to be done as they were necessary projects for ANY of the viaduct-replacement options. Good to know that work is already underway for this massive multi-model project. Of course, I'm sure things will change a bit now that we know which replacement option has been chosen.

January 14th, 2009, 05:40 PM	#75
jessejb Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,704 Likes (Received): 105	Toll the tunnel. It seems reasonable considering its an express route through the city. I don't think people would complain much. __________________ Le Tumblr: http://inanevergreenstate.tumblr.com/

January 14th, 2009, 07:34 PM	#76
Seattlelife Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Seattle/Brooklyn Posts: 3,399 Likes (Received): 61	I was very excited to see the region's decision makers decide on the tunnel. There will be nay sayers for everything, let's hope they don't get in the way of the tunnel at all. As was mentioned before, Seattle is already good enough at delaying projects like this. No more viaduct (I will miss the view from 99 but imo it wasn't worth the space it took up), a renewed connection to the waterfront and a lot more open space for pedestrians downtown. Awesome! I wasn't too familiar with the politics of the viaduct replacement. Did anyone else find it a little funny that Gregoire said no to a tunnel during the election then brought the idea back after she was elected. Is there any relation or am I making something out of nothing? __________________ Supersonics Belong in Seattle Sonicsgate, a must see! Just click and watch. http://www.sonicsgate.org/

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January 13th, 2009, 05:10 AM	#61
bgwah honk!!! Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,751 Likes (Received): 78	It's Proposal F here: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/fla...ayviaduct.html The Pike Place-Waterfront connection (F-6) still kind of sucks with this one. Why can't the Pike Place/Steinbruck Park part look more like G-6?

January 13th, 2009, 02:28 PM	#62
Seasun Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,561 Likes (Received): 43	The Times shows one larger tunnel under 1st Ave with the traffic stacked. The P-I is showing two tunnels, one under Post and one under Western. I think the 1st Ave version makes more sense in terms of safety and required land rights. Safety: If the two separate tunnels were much closer together then cross tunnels would allow for evacuation and more options for air circulation during a fire. The single larger tunnel should allow for much more robust air circ and better options to evacuate to a safer space. Going up and down stairs isn't ideal but it's better than suffocating or burning to a crisp. Land Rights: The 1st Ave sketch would seem to use public right-of-way until it hits Belltown. Post Alley is very narrow. Western Ave has decent width. Anyone know if there's a court precedent or some law that limits landowner control of their property beyond a certain depth? Could someone have mineral (mining) rights below someone else's property in this state?

January 13th, 2009, 05:02 PM	#63
CrazyAboutCities Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 8,332 Likes (Received): 17	I'm little surprised by this news. I'm still concerned about funding a bored tunnel. I noticed that bored tunnel doesn't included exits to downtown Seattle. Why is that? When will they start construction on bored tunnel?

January 13th, 2009, 07:47 PM	#65
CrazyAboutCities Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 8,332 Likes (Received): 17	It won't happen. I saw the polls for bored tunnel on Seattletimes.com... The result is changing but it is showing highest percentage of Seattle residents wants bored tunnel.

January 13th, 2009, 08:26 PM	#67
CityView Jim Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,963 Likes (Received): 64	I don't think this will slow things down. First she needs 18000 signatures. That's a lot. Then this goes before the council which is pretty much in favor of the tunnel if it can be properly funded. Should it go to a vote, I think tax payers will support the tunnel overall, again given proper financing strategy. I just dont think there are enough Magnolians who care that much to further stall progress. Aside from that, there will be 2-3 years of design and property acquisition. I'm still intrigued by the logistics of the whole thing. At some point before the tunnel is operational the viaduct will have to come down. How long will Seattle be without a true connection through that area? I eagerly await the design and proposed construction schedule.

January 13th, 2009, 08:35 PM	#68
CrazyAboutCities Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 8,332 Likes (Received): 17	I just read the article from Seattletimes.com... That article said they will start construction on bored tunnel in 2011 and will open in 2015. That is little faster than I expected.

January 13th, 2009, 09:16 PM	#70
meku Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 985 Likes (Received): 15	The viaduct is supposed to come down in 2012, but I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to stretch it's lifespan to 2014/2015. The surface street improvements might start as early as next year.

January 13th, 2009, 09:29 PM	#71
CrazyAboutCities Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 8,332 Likes (Received): 17	Yeah. I wonder how will they demolish the viaduct? Implosive?

January 14th, 2009, 02:43 AM	#73
Black Box Black Box Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 907 Likes (Received): 26	I was a bit shocked by this announcement. I can live with it. By the time this project is completed in 2015, 14 years will have passed since the earthquake. 14 whole years! That is too much time. It took 8 years for our region's leaders to make this decision. Ridiculous. That being said, I look forward to the additional time it will take for the waterfront to take shape. 2015-2017 should be something to look forward to. Hope I'm still alive.

January 14th, 2009, 07:01 AM	#74
RMacherat Buy used books Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,733 Likes (Received): 84	Me too, Black Box, by my 110th birthday anyway Guys, there is no way the tunnel will be completed in the mid twenty-teens. Are you forgetting where we live? Think Bus Tunnel II and Journey to the Center of the Earth. I'd hope and pray for 2020. And consider this, by then this bust will be over and we'll be well into another boom, traffic will be unspeakably worse because of the additional half-million new residents and then, whoa, maybe the viaduct wasn't all THAT unsteady after all and we decide not to knock it down. Anything can happen. There could be a quake which somehow demolishes the tunnel and leaves the viaduct standing tall and free. Anyway, the tunnel won't be cute anymore because its shortcomings will have been identified and denounced long before completion. Opponents will have successfully defeated a plan to add two more lanes in each direction for only $9 billion more. All in all though, I'm feeling pretty positive about the whole thing.

January 14th, 2009, 07:52 PM	#78
RMacherat Buy used books Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,733 Likes (Received): 84	The original 520 had (reasonable) tolls and actually paid itself off.

January 14th, 2009, 08:08 PM	#79
CityView Jim Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,963 Likes (Received): 64	I say toll it all. People still have choices and tolls work! Of course, I'm a fan of use-based taxing!! Shouldn't we all be?!

January 14th, 2009, 08:12 PM	#80
CityView Jim Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,963 Likes (Received): 64	Another thing. I was unaware that work is already underway to move the utilities that hug the viaduct to underground. I'm assuming this is already budgetted for as it is actually being done. Also scheduled to get underway this year is the south end of the viaduct work (replacing south of King Street with a side-by-side surface option. These things were planned out to be done as they were necessary projects for ANY of the viaduct-replacement options. Good to know that work is already underway for this massive multi-model project. Of course, I'm sure things will change a bit now that we know which replacement option has been chosen.