Seattle Area Traffic and Roads Thread

[BoulderGrad]

So I've been thinking about this whole tunnel Alaskan Way Viaduct thing incessantly for the last week (slow week at work), and I've decided my final verdict (based on zero transportation engineering experience) is that the new tunnel idea sucks (not REALLY sucks, but just... kindof sucks). And here's my reasons why, separated by section of the city (some of these have been voiced by other people, some have not).

SLU section:
They are still insisting on keeping aurora in its Quasi divided freeway state. This makes getting around SLU nearly impossible because you have a giant wall between LQA and SLU north of Denny. So anyone going south on 99, but wanting to get to saaaay SLU park would have to drive all the way down to Denny and then back north again on to get there. And vice versa, if you're headed North, but want to get to Seattle Center, you have to exit at Thomas St (and slow down in front of traffic trying to speed up and merge onto 99) and circle back down south to Denny. All this puts a huge load on Denny, and when they finally get done with a new 2-way mercer, it will put a huge load on the new Boulevard as well. Most freeways either have bridges or underpasses to allow people to cross them if they so wish, aurora does not. We could build a whole ton of bridges and underpases, but in the interest of making a more livable city, I think the part of this equation that needs to go is the whole being a freeway thing. Once you hit downtown, they should remove the divider and make signals at at least some of the cross streets (doesn't necessarily have to be all of them, but that would be nice). Maybe you could make the first big one mercer? or maybe make a smaller one just before mercer to slow traffic down or dump some before you get to the big crossing. Then you have a signal at each cross street until you get to the tunnel (I'll get to my critique of the portals later). Then traffic can flow easily east west between I-5 and the Seattle center, and we don't have parking lots on Mercer and Denny. Yes traffic will move slower, but everything has tradeoffs. I'd prefer ease of getting around to speed of getting around.

Belltown Tunnel section and Battery street tunnel:
The first big problem comes with trying to cram 2 tunnel portals into the north end of downtown. Why do they insist on keeping the battery street tunnel if it is no longer part of the thru way? Does it really take that long to drive the 6 blocks? Why can't we send intra-city traffic onto surface streets (the slip roads at Denny connect nicely with Wall and Battery street) then we'd just need to fill in the Battery street tunnel (or just wall it off to be a "seattle underground" or "queen anne counterbalance" kind of attraction) and use it's north portal as the entrance to the new tunnel. Then you don't run into the problem of not being able to have cross streets until you get to thomas street, and you can do what I propose above for SLU.

Downtown Tunnel section:
If you needed to get downtown, but you mistakenly went into the tunnel... Sorry, you're headed to SODO now... They seriously couldn't figure out how to put an exit downtown? There's several patches of unused land that would be perfect for a new access point. Maybe even not an unused patch of land, but something similar to what they did with the express lanes under the Seattle Muni building. Just... something.

SODO:
I can't say I'm a big fan of the tangletown they created at the south portal either. Why not dig it a little longer, or curve it a little sharper to have it parallel alaskan way, and then just do the same style portal thats at the battery street tunnel entrace. Clean, neat, doesnt take up as much room. Better than this thing anways.

[CrazyAboutCities]

I never understand why they didn't included exits to downtown from tunnel either.

I am curious how deep is that railroad tunnel along waterfront? I never know the exact route of railroad tunnel from the entrance near Pike Place Market to just outside of Union Station. I wonder will it inference deep bored tunnel and possible downtown tunnel extension?

[mhays]

The plan greatly enhances the ease of crossing Aurora north of Denny. The pictures I've seen show new crossings at John and Thomas (ps, did Monty Python write our street names?!) and Republican. This is about as good as I've ever hoped for.

An exit in the CBD is possible obviously. It's just astronomically expensive and would also cause a ton of disruption. I'd guess they'd need to level a city block for ramps to spiral up and down.

[BoulderGrad]

Ah, I already have one in mind:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=seattl...58963720099497

[Seasun]

Crazy -
The train tunnel goes under 4th Ave until about Seneca street where it goes under buildings (including Benaroya Hall and the Newmark building) on its way towards the north portal. If you stand in the middle of the intersection at 2nd Ave and Union you're directly on top of the tunnel. It's elevation is just above sea level (maybe +20) as are both it's portals.

BoulderGrad -
You show a street view on Western. Isn't the proposed tunnel on 1st Ave? I don't think there's a good way of making a CBD entrance or exit downtown from a new car tunnel.

[Bond James Bond]

If you look at the renderings there will be ample exits to downtown at the north and south ends of the tunnel.

[CrazyAboutCities]

Originally Posted by Seasun

Crazy -
The train tunnel goes under 4th Ave until about Seneca street where it goes under buildings (including Benaroya Hall and the Newmark building) on its way towards the north portal. If you stand in the middle of the intersection at 2nd Ave and Union you're directly on top of the tunnel. It's elevation is just above sea level (maybe +20) as are both it's portals.

Thanks. Do you know when railroad tunnel got built? It was an issue when it was during construction? I know that downtown tunnel construction was headaches for downtown Seattle for a while. I wonder about railroad tunnel.

[Seasun]

Here's the first paragraph of an essay at historylink.org. It's so deep that I don't think it disturbed much up on the street.
Great Northern Tunnel -- Seattle
http://historylink.org/index.cfm?Dis...istoryLink.org Essay 4029 : Printer-Friendly Format


The Great Northern Tunnel is a one-mile-long tunnel that runs beneath downtown Seattle from Alaskan Way (below Virginia Street) on the waterfront, to 4th Avenue S and Washington Street. The Great Northern Railway built it in 1904, at the insistence of Seattle City Engineer Reginald H. Thomson (1856-1949), to help alleviate rail congestion on Railroad Avenue (now Alaskan Way) and it is still in use today. In its heyday, the Great Northern Tunnel was the largest, although not the longest, tunnel in the nation. It cost $1,500,000 to build and was intended for use by both the Great Northern and the Northern Pacific Railroads, which split construction costs. Today the tunnel is owned and operated by the Burlington Northern -- Sante Fe Railway.

[CrazyAboutCities]

Thanks for the information. I just learned new thing today!

[Bond James Bond]

Finally they're gonna do some stuff on I-5 through Seattle. Hard to tell what they mean by "concrete panels" here, but I assume that means the road itself.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...eeways06m.html

Year of I-5 repairs starts Monday; watch for lane closures
Drivers in the Puget Sound region can expect a year of construction delays, starting with some overnight lane closures of crumbling Interstate 5 next week.
By Seattle Times staff

Drivers in the Puget Sound region can expect a year of construction delays, starting with some overnight lane closures of crumbling Interstate 5 next week.

Construction crews will replace or regrind 440 concrete panels of I-5 from the north King County line to south Boeing Field this year, at a cost of $21 million.

Work begins Monday night on northbound I-5 in Seattle.

There will be three overnight lane shutdowns from 7 p.m. to 5 a.m. next week, from the Albro/Swift exit to the West Seattle Bridge exit.

Then, southbound I-5 entering downtown will have a more severe closure Wednesday night and Thursday night from 8 p.m. to 5 a.m., followed by a weekend closure Feb. 12 to Feb. 16. Only one or two lanes will be open through downtown, with some exits closed. The state Department of Transportation predicts 45-minute delays.

Traffic coming into downtown Seattle from the south will also be jammed that weekend, because the I-5 express lanes will used for southbound traffic the entire weekend.

Future projects are planned at the I-90 floating bridge, I-405 near Renton, the Hood Canal Bridge, I-5 in North Seattle and Shoreline, Highway 520 at Overlake and I-405 at downtown Bellevue.

[CityView Jim]

I'm sure they mean the rutted out lanes that still exist everywhere but where they replaced a couple years ago (W Seattle exit to I-90 exit). Probably all the suspended portions especially. I notice myself driving in the sides of the lanes to avoid the ruts and the metal joiners between the panels.

One thing they failed to elaborate on in this artile is that they will be closing the Olive Way exit ramp for almost a year while they begin tunnel prep work underneath I-5. I guess there are some support columns or walls that will have to be drilled through or removed to gain way for the tunnel borer. The ramp will be closed, demolished and then rebuilt after tunneling through these subterranean walls. Same is true for the Pike St on/off ramp to the express lanes. They expect to close sometime around June and reopen again around May of 2010. Sorry, Capitol Hillfolk!

Here's the news blip from Sound Transit:

http://www.soundtransit.org/x9885.xml

[CrazyAboutCities]

Thanks for mentioned it. I'm very curious how they will bore tunnel from downtown tunnel while light rail and buses still running later this year.

[Seasun]

I really didn't know the Olive Way exit would be closed for about a year (as well as the Cherry Street on-ramp to northbound 5 for a shorter time). The detour route they show using Madison and then turning left at Boren is pretty weak. I understand the detour is intended to get people to Olive Way but I suspect many drivers might be better off using the Seneca Street off ramp into downtown, turn right on 6th Ave and then go up the hill on Pike. Large trucks will probably hate the Madison/Boren detour (steep hills up and down, short left had turn lane...) Large trucks delivering materials to construction projects or stores on Capitol Hill will hate this closure.

[Capitol Hill]

Originally Posted by Sorry, Capitol Hillfolk!

Here's the news blip from Sound Transit:

[url

http://www.soundtransit.org/x9885.xml[/url]

SON OF A BISCUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!grumble, when I get home in 6:30 in the morning, I don't want to have to do more damned detours. Grumble.

Okay, I'll get over it. Now, here's something curious. Are they going to rebuild the ramp PRIOR to them excavating for the Capitol Hill LRT station? Because that ramp is the most direct route for all of the trucks to the site. If they have to detour all around Capitol Hill, and I'm hearing there will be more than 12,000 truck trips, you're going to be hearing some screaming.

[CityView Jim]

Originally Posted by Capitol Hill

SON OF A BISCUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!grumble, when I get home in 6:30 in the morning, I don't want to have to do more damned detours. Grumble.

Okay, I'll get over it. Now, here's something curious. Are they going to rebuild the ramp PRIOR to them excavating for the Capitol Hill LRT station? Because that ramp is the most direct route for all of the trucks to the site. If they have to detour all around Capitol Hill, and I'm hearing there will be more than 12,000 truck trips, you're going to be hearing some screaming.

They're not even building the station for several more years. The new ramp will be well finished by then.

Strange that they're supposed to be tearing down all structures on the Broadway block now (or very soon).

They'll spend a year prepping. Another year or so drilling one way. Another year or so drilling the other way. THEN they will begin the station on Capitol Hill. I'm guessing by 2012 or 2013 they'll BEGIN the station.

[CrazyAboutCities]

My understanding that they're currently working on demolishing buildings on Broadway but they have to remove absotes (sp?) first then they can tear whole buildings down.

[USAPatriot]

As with all state estimates, the price tag will be much higher then their "experts" expect.

Also, the plan stinks. We will be losing lanes for traffic. Which means.... yep, worse traffic on the tunnel then we had on the viaduct. More cars crammed in a tunnel, struggling to breath within waiting to lurch out...

[mhays]

Once again, the tunnel is higher capacity than the current 99 tunnel. Same number of lanes, but with breakdown lanes added. The difference is that people going to Magnolia or Downtown will exit sooner.

[Seasun]

Bleak Metro Transit budget news. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ransit18m.html

If I could choose which routes to cut I'd keep the city routes, I'd keep the service between cities and I'd axe the rural "milk-run" routes. I've been on country roads in rural parts of King County and noticed Metro bus stops - and I'm thinking what the heck are we doing with bus stops in the middle of almost nowhere? I would also cut some city routes that are somewhat close to other routes.

For example the 15 goes up 15th Ave in Ballard while the 18 goes up 24th I think. Yeah it sucks to walk 9 blocks but is it better to have a 15 every 30 minutes (today) or one every hour (if trying to maintain both routes at lesser frequency) I'd also be tempted to axe city routes that are barely usable. The 25 in Laurelhurst runs so rarely/unpredictably that it's of little use.

[jessejb]

Axe the 14. That thing is useless.