Before the war Angola and Mozambique were richer than Portugal

[Matthias Offodile]

This is just a plain and interesting piece of information , so please no ranting!

Here is the link: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...6#post24016796

[Carver02]

Interesting stats, but it would also be interesting to see what the average take home income was for the indigenous population.

[Barragon]

Angola and Mozambique were Portugal

but what carver says make sense... they probably made the statistics with the known white minorities and the indigenous people were not counted.

[agostinho]

Originally Posted by Carver02

Interesting stats, but it would also be interesting to see what the average take home income was for the indigenous population.

i agree with you at all, just to have an idea, the most black angolans by then did not have the chance to go to school and whenever they didn't find anything interesting, they didn't invest there.so, sometimes i don't even mind about such statistics, let's move on. estou de acordo consigo , para ter uma ideia, a mair parte da população angolana não tinha acesso a escola e onde eles não descobrissem nada interessante, não investiam aí.por isto , as vezes nem sequer faço caso de tais estatísticas,sigamos em frente

[Matthias Offodile]

why should they have used this only for the around 10% white minority in Angola? this doesn´t make sense!

of course, these figures don´t show the income disparities which most probably were huge but these are nonethless ON AVERAGE figures!

[Matthias Offodile]

Angola and Mozambique were Portugal

yes, but only on paper. Most of the Whites had little contact with Portugal. Yesterday they showed a film on ARTE TV about Mozambique before independence, I was suprised to learn that white Mozambicans (descendants of Portuguese) struggled to become independent fromPortugal and form their own state, something like what was done in former Rhodesia that got independet from England.

Anyway, this is history but these figures are nevertheless interesting and show some trends even if they tell half the story! and they also show the time after independence

[Matthias Offodile]

Here is a list about Africa´s largest economies from 1960 onwards (for those of you interested)! it is interesting to see that Africa performed a lot better than (some) Asian countries.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=687018

[Die Kapenaar]

Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile

yes, but only on paper. Most of the Whites had little contact with Portugal. Yesterday they showed a film on ARTE TV about Mozambique before independence, I was suprised to learn that white Mozambicans (descendants of Portuguese) struggled to become independent fromPortugal and form their own state, something like what was done in former Rhodesia that got independet from England.

Anyway, this is history but these figures are nevertheless interesting and show some trends even if they tell half the story! and they also show the time after independence

I've heard about that. After the 1974 Left wing coup in Portugal there was a coalition of right wing whites and blacks that tried to seize power to prevent the Marxist Frelimo from taking over but because post-coup Lisbon had negotiated agreement with Frelimo, Portuguese troops were ordered to put down the protests violently. A white-backed rebel regime in Mozambique with some semblance of multi-racial composition would have aligned itself with apartheid SA and Ian Smith's Rhodesia but it is not clear whether Vorster in SA would accept that as he was negotiating with Smith to accept majority rule in Rhodesia to take the heat off of apartheid SA by the Western countries.

[agostinho]

Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile

yes, but only on paper. Most of the Whites had little contact with Portugal. Yesterday they showed a film on ARTE TV about Mozambique before independence, I was suprised to learn that white Mozambicans (descendants of Portuguese) struggled to become independent fromPortugal and form their own state, something like what was done in former Rhodesia that got independet from England.

Anyway, this is history but these figures are nevertheless interesting and show some trends even if they tell half the story! and they also show the time after independence

thanks to God it didn't happen like that, otherwise, it would be another south africa, the story would be the same.graças a Deus as coisas não se passaram desta maneira, de outra forma, seria o mesmo que se passa na áfrica do sul, a estória seria a mesma.

[popa1980]

agostinho, voce tem razao! O maior parte da populacao nae tinha aceso o escola. Estive um pouco pretos na escola nestes paises. Os brancos vivian uma vida mais differente que os pretos.

Matthias, the immigrants were VERY connected to Portugal. That is why they all fled so quickly after the war unlike in Rhoedesia where half the whites at least stayed. MOst of them were only 1st or 2nd generation- remember that mass white immigration to these countries was a relatively recent thing compared to Zimbabwe and SA.

[popa1980]

Matt, you dont really believe that in a country like Mozambique where blacks were PREVENTED from owning their own businesses, where there were 33 black university graduates in the country, and where blacks had one of the lowest levels of literacy rate in the world....that these figuers applied to the majority of the population??

[Matthias Offodile]

Matthias, the immigrants were VERY connected to Portugal. That is why they all fled so quickly after the war unlike in Rhoedesia where half the whites at least stayed. MOst of them were only 1st or 2nd generation- remember that mass white immigration to these countries was a relatively recent thing compared to Zimbabwe and SA.

They were not, really! The reason why they fled was due to the war, the first president of Mozambique pleaded the Whites to stay. Moreover, there were also many and I say many black Angolan that fled too. I am not talking of the war refugees but there were many that left due to war together with the whites.

Zimabwe and SA had no wars! That´s a huuuuuge difference! Just imagine what SA would look like today when their independence was not as smooth as planned by Mandela, it would have made the independent period of the former Belgian Congo look like a cheery kinderplay play, really I am not kiding. Just be honest to yourself and ask how SA would look like today when a Mobutu style leader had taken over?

Anyway, out of interest some time ago, I looked for numbers and between 100 000-120 000 whites in Angola remained...and the majority of those that fled didn´t leave for Portugal or only for short period many fled to Brazil (and they still define themselves as "Angolans", I have read countless skyblog and seen and read a lot about these two countries (and Angola in particular, I am also fully aware about the bad sides of Portuguese colonialism in Angola) the past two years about Angola)..there is also a relatively strong Portuguese-speaking community in SA today and guess where they come from?

And Why are we talking about colonialism? These figures simply show that Portugal was poorer than Angola at a certian time in history, this is a plain fact and nothing more. This is nothing against beautiful Angola nor beautiful Portugal, but can´t we swallow facts?

It is a plain fact as well that Angola without a war that was most damaging to its population and the infrastructure would look different TODAY than what we see now. (despite the great new structures, Angola is tsill marked by signs of war. we should not forget this) Although I am very happy for Angola that it rises from the ashes after more than a generation in turmoil, it still has to work very hard to attain its position it would have inherited after 1975...it might reach this position again in 10, maybe 15 years (in terms of fully rebuilt cities and villages, electricity generation, roads and bridges schools etc). So let´s say this will be by 2020...Angola will be in 2020 were it stood in 1975...from there it has to build up again!!! from aposition it COULD HAVE embarked upon at time of independence. In the meantime so many countries have races past Angola and catching up will be twice as hard now.

Whereever I am looking in Africa I just these so many lost years (except Botswana and Mauritius) or stalled development and all we can say is nothing??? take Nigeria it has the 25 strongest economy by 1980 in the world. ..and with lot less misery and poverty than we see today in Nigeria. This frustrates me tremendously!!!!

It is a plain fact that Ghana at time of independence was in a better position than South Korea, older figures show this!! Why is Ghana which was the first nation to becoem independent still hasn´t moved as much as it was predicted. we are taling of half a century, two generations!!!

[Matthias Offodile]

Mozambique

1960: #111 Mozambique: $463.42 per capita 1960 ..
compared to countries such as Portugal #129 Portugal: $357.06 per capita 1960

1995 #201 Mozambique: $141.72 per capita 1995 ..

Côte d´ivoire before and after the economic miracle driven by agriculture/agro-industries

1960: #164 Côte d'Ivoire: $153.55 per capita 1960

1970 #156 Côte d'Ivoire: $272.81 per capita 1970 ...

#138 Côte d'Ivoire: $590.65 per capita 1975 ..

#112 Côte d'Ivoire: $1,219.43 per capita 1980 .. (at its height)

#139 Côte d'Ivoire: $745.50 per capita 1995 ..

Angola..lost a lot despite oil exploration

#83 Angola: $1,118.64 per capita 1970 ...


#167 Angola: $410.40 per capita 1995 ...

Nigeria´s figures

#183 Nigeria: $102.68 per capita 1960 ...

#165 Nigeria: $241.93 per capita 1970 ...

#127 Nigeria: $937.97 per capita 1980 ... (at the end of the heydays)

#167 Nigeria: $362.19 per capita 1985 ...

#186 Nigeria: $270.50 per capita 1995 ... (during Nigeria worst times)

Now let´s take Thailand (2nd generation Asian tiger)

#182 Thailand: $103.78 per capita 1960 ...

#172 Thailand: $195.46 per capita 1970 ...

#161 Thailand: $360.43 per capita 1975 ...

#148 Thailand: $698.28 per capita 1980 ...

#132 Thailand: $768.61 per capita 1985 ..

#86 Thailand: $2,878.09 per capita 1995 ..

#107 Thailand: $1,856.53 per capita 1998 ...(after Asia´s financial crisis)

Botswana

#202 Botswana: $53.09 per capita 1960 ... (fifth poorest country in the world)

#57 Botswana: $5,918.21 per capita 2005

Africa has to outpace all the Asian tigers now!!! This will be an uphill struggle, that´s bitter reality!

Maybe a collapse or a complete stagnation of some Asian countries for a generation could make things easier!

[Matthias Offodile]

Ghana´s size of economy in 1960..so it was the 45th biggest economy in the world

#45 Ghana: 1,217,153,000 1960 ...

the fourth biggest in Africa of those that were listed

#17 South Africa: 7,342,226,000 1960 ...

#24 Nigeria: 4,196,175,000 1960 ...

#31 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 3,359,404,000 1960 ..

The Congo (ex-Zaire) is another big surprise for me

[agostinho]

Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile

Ghana´s size of economy in 1960..so it was the 45th biggest economy in the world

#45 Ghana: 1,217,153,000 1960 ...

the fourth biggest in Africa of those that were listed

#17 South Africa: 7,342,226,000 1960 ...

#24 Nigeria: 4,196,175,000 1960 ...

#31 Congo, Democratic Republic of the: 3,359,404,000 1960 ..

The Congo (ex-Zaire) is another big surprise for me

it belongs to the past, let's forget about it.isto pertence ao passado, esqueçamos

[popa1980]

Yes, all this reminiscing of the "good old days" under Portuguese rule is an insult to those who layed down their lives for freedom. Unfortunately that freedon was followed by a CIA/South African- created war.

Yes, Ghana was in the strongest position after independene mainly because a British governor, the 20s, the best leader that Ghana has over had (Gold Coast at the time)- encouraged a policy of developing the colony for the "natives" as opposed to colonial interests. As a result Ghana had huge foreign reserves per capita compared to the other developing nations at the time, and many univeristy graduates- there were porbably more university graduates in my extended family in the 1950s than there were total black university graduates in the WHOLE of Mozambique- the sad thing is this is not a joke!

Lets move on! Forward ever, backward never!

[Matthias Offodile]

Yes, all this reminiscing of the "good old days" under Portuguese rule is an insult to those who layed down their lives for freedom. Unfortunately that freedon was followed by a CIA/South African- created war.

Are you aware of the fact that t some of the most prominent freedom figters /vocal critical minds of colonial policy in Angola were white Angolans (descendants of Portuguese)??

If there is one things that I don´t like then it is stereotype, "white" doesn ´t mean automactically "evil" or "bad"! When I lived in Africa, I have seen so many white people that loved the continent and contributed a lot to its development. Most of my parents friends are mixed-race married couples and they are still almost all happiliy married. In your mind white is automatically "devilish", I at times have the impression, maybe a false one.

Popa1980, you know that I carry my heart on my tongue! The only reason why I am reminiscent of the past (or let´s say like to look at old pictures, not only in Africa but around the world) is not because of colonialism (NEVER!!) but things had more order and structure in Africa, whereever you look at old personal photos things looked "idyllic" to what they are now! even when you look at old post-colonial pictures (70´S AND 80´S) cities were more ordered and cleaner than they are now. I WANT THEM TO LOOK LIKE THAT AGAIN!

Yes, Ghana was in the strongest position after independene mainly because a British governor, the 20s, the best leader that Ghana has over had (Gold Coast at the time)- encouraged a policy of developing the colony for the "natives" as opposed to colonial interests. As a result Ghana had huge foreign reserves per capita compared to the other developing nations at the time, and many univerity graduates- there were porbably more university graduates in my extended family in the 1950s than there were total black university graduates in the WHOLE of Mozambique- the sad thing is this is not a joke!

Hmmh, show me the facts, the numbers and stats! What you are writing sounds like what the Dutch had done in Indonesia, from there I have seen the plain facts, I checked it in university library, I had to present a paper, that´s why!
You make it sound that Ghana was the only developed country at that time.
You are aware that apart from the French no other colonial power granted the "colonized" the status of French citizen..and the Englsih were very famous for practising apartheid. (All did it of course, but the British and Dutch excelled in it)
btw, ...most of the black American peoplethat which were viciously oppreessed in the USA emmigrated to France during the 40´s, 50´s and 60´s. PEOPLE do seem to have forgotten this...when they look at the USA today, they only look at fun, glamour and happy people!

Moreover, colonial policy had a lot to do whether the country was a dictorship (in case of Portugal), a monarchy (England, Belgium or Spain) or a democracy (France).

Lets move on! Forward ever, backward never!

Yes, because the past is gone but needs to be dealt with in order to make the future look good and bright.

[HirakataShi]

Originally Posted by Matthias Offodile

Before the war Angola and Mozambique were richer than Portugal

Well that might explain why Portugal held on until 1975, after other European countries had decolonised. Portugal didn't want to lose its cash cow!

And it explains the real reason why South Africa moved in. To get rid of potential competition.

[Matthias Offodile]

Well that might explain why Portugal held on until 1975, after other European countries had decolonised. Portugal didn't want to lose its cash cow!

And it explains the real reason why South Africa moved in. To get rid of potential competition.

No, this was not the ONLY case! one of the biggest foreign investors in Angola in the past were German companies. You had the MAN high-building which I have seen on old pictures and many big German companies, teh Italisns were present to and even the French....you didn´t find this in any other Europena colony, they wer either fully British or fully French!

...the Portuguese were suprised when they were connfronted with decolonisation movement, because they no longer defined Mozambique and Angola as "colonies". (I have read a book)

But enough of this old historic stuff now, please!

But one thing is sure, Mozambique and Angola without two devastating wars would have looked very different from today...Luanda would have had all these endless slums, developemnt would have been more decentralised (you had many good cities), just imagine what Huambo would look like today....all the mega oil exploration would have started in Angola in the 70´s like it was the case in Nigeria or the Arabian Gulf States, this would have set in an enormous building boom and less and less poverty. If things had gone well, Angola would be better than Malaysia today, not just economically but socially too! 15 million people are good to manage and give a good standard of living.


Now it has to claim from below again and SA won´t have a counterweight for the next two genrations to come, most probably!

Competition is always a good thing!

PS: I am still waiting for the African leader that is a mixture between Mandela (in terms of humanity), former Ivorian president F-Houphoet-Boigny (being clever and placing emphasis on economics rather than poltics), Nkrumah (for nationalist and visionary thinking in a postive way) and L.S.Senghor (for the bright philosophical mind)...I know this type of leader will come one day!

[agostinho]

this man or boy can't understand anything, ok matthias if you think black peolple hold something against white people just because we expose our points of view about the subject.let's pretend that you are right and end of the subject.