daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > General Urban Developments > DN Archives



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 17th, 2011, 01:46 AM   #1941
Hot Rod
Big City Enthusiast
 
Hot Rod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Osaka, Chicago, Chongqing, Seattle, and OKC
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 99

very nice pic, doesn't even look like Oklahoma City. ....
Hot Rod no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 17th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #1942
TU 'cane
Registered User.
 
TU 'cane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 2,251
Likes (Received): 111

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
very nice pic, doesn't even look like Oklahoma City. ....
Ditto.
__________________
Farewell Texas Stadium
1971-2008


Principle 27: The burden of debt is as destructive to freedom as subjugation by conquest.
-28 Principles of Freedom


"Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred."
-Jacques Barzun
TU 'cane no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #1943
TU 'cane
Registered User.
 
TU 'cane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 2,251
Likes (Received): 111

Went down to OKC yesterday.

I was around the Capitol area and didn't get to go to downtown. But, you can see this building from anywhere in the city now. It's HUGE. Looks awesome also.
__________________
Farewell Texas Stadium
1971-2008


Principle 27: The burden of debt is as destructive to freedom as subjugation by conquest.
-28 Principles of Freedom


"Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred."
-Jacques Barzun
TU 'cane no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2011, 11:04 PM   #1944
UnFrSaKn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
Likes (Received): 2

December 17 2011

Skydance Pedestrian Bridge construction

UnFrSaKn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2011, 01:18 AM   #1945
kingchef
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 296
Likes (Received): 4

i think it is a very nice looking building, and i really like the picture of what appears to be an atrium-like structure at the base of some of the building construction. very pretty, and it gives okc a very different look. too, i like the triple wave-looking building to the extreme left of the devon tower.

i has been a while since i have been to okc, but i know building buffs and your citizens, in general, have a right to be proud. i would like to see memphis get some ht in downtown. we are sort of hung at 12-18 stories. i would be happy to see the 5 and 6 hundred ft range for m-town. anyways, thanks for sharing the photos and the close ups, and who is going to be concerned w/ useful space, as one drives by? more likely that everyone will take in the beauty of the entire structure and wonder how they get these large buildings up. again, congrats to ya'll. kingchef
kingchef no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 19th, 2011, 09:22 AM   #1946
Hot Rod
Big City Enthusiast
 
Hot Rod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Osaka, Chicago, Chongqing, Seattle, and OKC
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 99

kingchef, does memphis have height limits?

I often wondered why the city (long considered a major city) has such a low height skyline. ... Wonderful history and culture though. ...
Hot Rod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2011, 06:31 AM   #1947
UnFrSaKn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
Likes (Received): 2

Peek inside the Devon Tower

Chellie Mills Reporting KFOR-TV

December 19, 2011

OKLAHOMA CITY -- The Devon Tower reached its final height a few weeks ago. While it has been easy to see the outside of the building taking shape, it has been mostly up to the imagination to see the inside, that is until now.
UnFrSaKn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2011, 06:51 AM   #1948
UnFrSaKn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 145
Likes (Received): 2

Amid the pain, an incredible transformation is taking place in downtown Oklahoma City

BY STEVE LACKMEYER Business Writer [email protected]
Published: December 20, 2011

Standing on the 40th floor of the new Devon Energy Center Monday, I had already been mesmerized by a view of the project itself when I stopped to gaze out on the new Interstate 40, the Skydance pedestrian bridge and the Myriad Gardens.

I had traversed through one minefield after another, thanks to Project 180, just to get to this place. The street closures are bad enough. A walk through the pitted, muddy crosswalks and sidewalks while being soaked by the rain was quite another story.
UnFrSaKn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2011, 09:02 AM   #1949
kingchef
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 296
Likes (Received): 4

hot rod, memphis downtown and midtown, as i understand it, has an ordinance known as the "euclidian" laws. the buildings which are to exceed any limit beyond 150 feet (might possibly be 1oo feet), must be presented before the city council and a prelimanary counsil.

i really can't tell you why and the exact time frame in which they were insituted, although i believe it may have been the late 70's or possibly the early 80's. remember, the international airport is located between winchester and slightly to the east of I-55 and I-240 loop, which is slightly to the south of this loop. consequently, though several large mid-rise coporate offices are located near by, ht is definitely not a significant problem. too, the lates building just completed in the last few months is the le bonheur children's medical center tower. it rises approximately to 251 feet. other recently completed downtown is the horizon, at 16 stories, and it sits on the bluffs. they have begun work on another 8 story research building downtown, which will connect to an identical building, competed in the last three years. 8 stories. the high rise marriot, next to the convention center, is about to begin construction of a wing, which will hold 150-60 rooms. original building is about 17 or 19 stories, they added a 2nd addition about 4 years ago of 13 stories, and now this new wing. an 11 story luxury hilton is supposed to begin construction by the end of this november. it is supposed to have a 11 story parking garage, w/ a two story mixed retail component on the bottom floors. it will have a turret entrance w/ a copper dome. another downtown marriot was just completed at courtsquare downtown, it is 9 stories. many building projects, buy not a great deal of ht. it is disappointing, because memphis has some really nice ht at the 240 business corridor. look under bill cobb, urban photos memphis. cd has some pretty decent pictures of east to west density of about 12-16 miles of memphis that are fairly inclusive of the midle of the city. the newly completed air control terminal at memphis inter is 3336-340 ft, the third tallest in the us. however, m-town needs some really slick and different skyscrapers like ya'll are sporting. are more coming in the near future? really changes the entire looks of all that flat land, and i think, in this kind of terrain a building of this size is the perfect thing to detract a bit from those not use to pasture land, etc. how is tulsa taking the news. i have close friends in okc, and i didn't realize the rivalry was so deep. for its size, tulsa looks pretty good. one last comment about memphis, not really knocking any of the people particularly, w/ the exception of the developers, memphis has 4 or 5 of the biggest development companies and management corporations in america, but they just don't seem to have any real investment of large projects in memphis. e.g. peabody place luxury suites took a back seat to the orlando project, which was completed about 2 or 3 months ago. something like 450-60 million development. about a year ago, the media here in memphis told that the memphis addition and project would probably be shelved for about a year or year and a half, to finish up the orlando luxury project. memphis is in need of luxury rooms somewhere in the range of 1200-1600 in downtown, at this time. even w/ the case, memphis has lost at least two conventions to other cities, due to the lack of hotel space. both conventions were 25,000 and 45,000 respectively. it will take about 24 months to get additional hotel space built, inculding the new convention center hotel, its size, in relation to the pyramid, etc. just sort of aggravating, in my view. will the devon tower be the tallest skyscraper in the midwest? i don't remember a great deal about denver, but i hope okc really shines, when i fly in this summer. again, good for your city.
kingchef no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2011, 09:16 AM   #1950
Hot Rod
Big City Enthusiast
 
Hot Rod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Osaka, Chicago, Chongqing, Seattle, and OKC
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 99

thanks for the info king, I figured there must have been some reason.

As for Tulsa, I think the rivalry is finally winding down as OKC has taken significant leaps that I think many Tulsans are actually proud of, and probably more proud to say OKC as the state's largest city (since it looks like it now). I think both sides have come together a lot more as the "competition" is much much less now, but there are still hold-outs Im sure.

Tulsa definitely does have a great skyline for a city its size, no doubt about that. Arguably the best skyline in the usa for a city less than 500K. I do like what Tulsa is doing with residential density surrounding their CBD; it doesn't get as much press as OKC but Tulsa seems to move a bit more organically whereas OKC moves in BIG chunks/BIG projects and plans. Different methods and outcomes, but definitely good moves respectively for both cities.

Personally, I think OKC needs to develop the way it has. Being the state capital, it is probably a little more difficult NOT to have a master development since 'funding' that has nothing to do with a project could easily/quickly be diverted - but that politics could derail little organic developments (see OKC's growing yet fledgling inner city neighbourhoods VS. OKC's downtown neighbourhoods). Tulsa seems to be the OTHER way around (easier for organic, small development not so easy for BIG civic projects).

That's my take, but Im an expat so Im sure there might be other views.
Hot Rod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2011, 09:24 AM   #1951
Hot Rod
Big City Enthusiast
 
Hot Rod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Osaka, Chicago, Chongqing, Seattle, and OKC
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 99

oh yes, Devon Tower is the tallest in the 'midwest' outside of Chicago. It is the tallest in the Plains and between the West Coast and Chicago outside of Texas (Dallas and Houston).

LA has a few towers that are taller and Seattle's Columbia Center is taller. Devon would more or less be a middle skyscraper in Chicago's cbd forests. ... hard to imagine that when looking at Devon in OKC.
Hot Rod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 20th, 2011, 04:00 PM   #1952
phoenix1411
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rose1 View Post
Truly gained more respect for OKC after seeing this pic. The skyscrapers showing crosses is awesome! What's it for
Awesome shot! And beautiful building!
phoenix1411 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 03:52 AM   #1953
TU 'cane
Registered User.
 
TU 'cane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 2,251
Likes (Received): 111

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
thanks for the info king, I figured there must have been some reason.

As for Tulsa, I think the rivalry is finally winding down as OKC has taken significant leaps that I think many Tulsans are actually proud of, and probably more proud to say OKC as the state's largest city (since it looks like it now). I think both sides have come together a lot more as the "competition" is much much less now, but there are still hold-outs Im sure.
It goes both ways.

I know I am very proud of what OKC is doing and I never got into the rivalry thing, pretty silly if you ask me.

Both cities are great and have their own positives and negatives.
__________________
Farewell Texas Stadium
1971-2008


Principle 27: The burden of debt is as destructive to freedom as subjugation by conquest.
-28 Principles of Freedom


"Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred."
-Jacques Barzun
TU 'cane no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 05:49 AM   #1954
540_804
VA is for LOVERS!
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Roanoke and Richmond, VA
Posts: 713
Likes (Received): 87

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
oh yes, Devon Tower is the tallest in the 'midwest' outside of Chicago. It is the tallest in the Plains and between the West Coast and Chicago outside of Texas (Dallas and Houston).

LA has a few towers that are taller and Seattle's Columbia Center is taller. Devon would more or less be a middle skyscraper in Chicago's cbd forests. ... hard to imagine that when looking at Devon in OKC.
According to the wikipedia data for Chicago's tallest, Devon would be number 11 I think. Even in NYC it would crack the top 20. That being said, I think it would still stand out even in Chicago (though obviously not in the same way it stands out in OKC), similar to the way Aqua (which is shorter than Devon, btw) stands out and makes an impression on the skyline.

What Devon lacks in height (relatively speaking, of course) it makes up in quality. This building stands head and shoulders above MOST tall buildings in the US in terms of quality from what I've seen in this thread. Strictly in terms of aesthetics (which is obviously subjective), Devon has very few peers outside of NYC (or inside for that matter).


OKC certainly has reason to be proud.
540_804 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 07:47 AM   #1955
Manitopiaaa
Illuminati Leader
 
Manitopiaaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Alexandria, Nova, The Crown Commonwealth of Virginia (see sig)
Posts: 4,425
Likes (Received): 10282

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
thanks for the info king, I figured there must have been some reason.

As for Tulsa, I think the rivalry is finally winding down as OKC has taken significant leaps that I think many Tulsans are actually proud of, and probably more proud to say OKC as the state's largest city (since it looks like it now). I think both sides have come together a lot more as the "competition" is much much less now, but there are still hold-outs Im sure.

Tulsa definitely does have a great skyline for a city its size, no doubt about that. Arguably the best skyline in the usa for a city less than 500K. I do like what Tulsa is doing with residential density surrounding their CBD; it doesn't get as much press as OKC but Tulsa seems to move a bit more organically whereas OKC moves in BIG chunks/BIG projects and plans. Different methods and outcomes, but definitely good moves respectively for both cities.

Personally, I think OKC needs to develop the way it has. Being the state capital, it is probably a little more difficult NOT to have a master development since 'funding' that has nothing to do with a project could easily/quickly be diverted - but that politics could derail little organic developments (see OKC's growing yet fledgling inner city neighbourhoods VS. OKC's downtown neighbourhoods). Tulsa seems to be the OTHER way around (easier for organic, small development not so easy for BIG civic projects).

That's my take, but Im an expat so Im sure there might be other views.

As much as Tulsans envy the Devon Tower (if they know about it), I don't think "winding down" is the right word. I would say that Oklahoma City and Tulsa have parted down different paths. Tulsa will never become Oklahoma City because we lack the State Government's Gleeful Handouts, the Good City Government, and the Land Area to become Oklahoma City. I think the past two years has seen Tulsa look inward and decide that we can't compete with Oklahoma City on size, or population or industrial might. I think what has happened has been Tulsa striving to become an Austin "hip and artsy" kind of place. From the Brady Arts District to the Blue Dome, Tulsa's city leaders have tried to brand Tulsa as a very "Austin-meets-Memphis-meets-Native America-meets-the 50s " kind of city. Oklahoma City has gone a different route. They've decided that they have all the factors needed to grow precipitously in the next decade. Rather than becoming Austin, Oklahoma City wants to become a mini-Dallas (~2 million by 2050) or so. Oklahoma City has the area, the capital, the capitol, the economic stability and the location to boom for the next decade. So while Tulsa is trying to emulate Austin, OKC is trying to emulate Dallas. I guess at the end of it, the rivalry isn't so much winding down as it is evolving.
__________________


Atlanta (6,451,262) - Boston (8,176,376) - Chicago (9,882,634) - Cleveland (3,483,311) - Dallas (7,673,305) - Denver (3,470,235) - Detroit (5,318,653) - Houston (6,972,374)
Los Angeles (18,688,022) - Miami (6,723,472) - Minneapolis (3,894,820) - New York (23,689,255) - Orlando (3,202,927) - Philadelphia (7,179,357) - Phoenix (4,661,537)
Portland (3,160,488) - San Diego (3,317,749) - San Francisco (8,751,807) - Seattle (4,684,516) - Tampa (3,032,171) - Washington (9,665,892)

Last edited by Manitopiaaa; December 21st, 2011 at 07:54 AM.
Manitopiaaa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 09:15 AM   #1956
Hot Rod
Big City Enthusiast
 
Hot Rod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Vancouver, Osaka, Chicago, Chongqing, Seattle, and OKC
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 99

Manitopiaaa, I do agree with your thoughts; I suppose what i meant is that the rivalry "as it was" is winding down but parting ways is probably a better description. But I suppose there is still some deep seeded feelings or resentments particularly from Tulsa given that OKC has the capital and is the largest city; maybe that is 'natural' given OKC has both titles (I wonder if CO Springs feels similarly toward Denver).

I do agree with you that Tulsa seems to have given up on competing directly with OKC and has gone a different 'austin' eclectic route. Totally agree with that and I definitely think Tulsa will be very successful with that niche civic development model. I visited the city a few years ago and got that impression - big civic, corporate industrial ambitions seemed to give way to microbrews, IT, and specialty shops. Just think, Austin followed many ideas from Vancouver - which is arguably one of the most successful cities in the world, so Tulsa hopefully should expect great things indeed without going all out the way OKC needs to with its model.

I totally agree with your assessment of OKC that it is trying to catch up with and compete with the national players. Actually, I think that is good for Oklahoma to have a city that CAN compete and win sometimes against the big boys. I think maybe OKC is probably moreso becoming a mini-Houston in a way rather than Dallas, but anyone could have a valid point on the model city that OKC is following.

One thing is for sure, you can tell just from these past few posts that the OKC-Tulsa rivalry has changed, because the things that used to be 'fightin words' really aren't as much anymore. It seems as if both cities are saying and respecting the good the other is doing, since both cities are doing things on different levels. I think that is the key and should make Oklahoma more successful in the long run as hopefully the two cities can compete nationally in their respective 'roles'.

Most states have One really large city or metro of cities, be it capital or not, and then everybody else in the state is significantly smaller. Only these few states have two + historically similarly sized and/or resourced cities but one had to go one direction and the other had to go another.

I suspect other states with two large but disconnected cities have had to learn similarly how to thrive. What did LA and SF do? Houston and Dallas? Phily and Pitt? Cleveland and Cincy? And now OKC and Tulsa.

Any other ideas or thoughts?
Hot Rod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 07:53 PM   #1957
dmoor82
Red Sox Nation!
 
dmoor82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,497
Likes (Received): 46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
oh yes, Devon Tower is the tallest in the 'midwest' outside of Chicago. It is the tallest in the Plains and between the West Coast and Chicago outside of Texas (Dallas and Houston).

LA has a few towers that are taller and Seattle's Columbia Center is taller. Devon would more or less be a middle skyscraper in Chicago's cbd forests. ... hard to imagine that when looking at Devon in OKC.
The TransAmerica pyramid tower in San Fran is six feet taller also!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transamerica_Pyramid
__________________
Red Sox Nation

Last edited by dmoor82; December 22nd, 2011 at 12:30 AM.
dmoor82 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 09:44 PM   #1958
shane453
Registered User
 
shane453's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 1,229
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
So while Tulsa is trying to emulate Austin, OKC is trying to emulate Dallas. I guess at the end of it, the rivalry isn't so much winding down as it is evolving.
Yeah Tulsa is doing great but I would actually say that OKC is matching or surpassing Tulsa in terms of local alternative culture at this time. Tulsa has a lot of stuff coming up, but OKC is boiling over with creative talent, everything from music ([email protected], Flaming Lips) to fashion (Plaza District) and technology (Quibids, Medical District), and especially dining (Ludivine, Big Truck, Iguana Lounge, etc) and microbrewing (COOP, Redbud). OKC's growth is being driven by this surge of Austin-style youthful creativity as much as it is by Dallas-style corporate and population growth.
shane453 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011, 11:43 PM   #1959
kingchef
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 296
Likes (Received): 4

540. i agree w/ your statement totally. i have a good eye, along w/ modesty, lol, and as i wrote my first comments regarding devon, i was thinking about the very subject of beauty, portions, ht, movement, and all of those things that make this building more than just a skinny tall building. first, most cities go nuts over ht, not really caring about the other things that make the building an icon in the city for, hopefully, the next 100-125 years. some cities would just about stick a pencil in the ground, and be happy, if it were 2000+ feet. the devon building has a top that looks as if it has had the time to rise gracefully, taper appropriately, and crown. i love the movement going up the building, as the multiple sides don't stop the eye, as it moves up. in short, it doesn't look as if it is an economy skyscraper, and i think most of us know those when we see them. one last thing, i think the city will be able to place another skyscraper in the downtown business district that will meet the intermediate distance between the devon and the current highest tower. to me, this is good planning.

one comment about tulsa centers around my belief that it is a city of old wealth from the oil companies. is tulsa not doing well in the oil economy? i have never been there, so i don't know about the diversification of their economy. as for the balance of cities in a state, i do think that it can be a bit of a headache sometimes. being a memphian, our metro is split between the three states of tn, ms, and ark. of course, nashville-davidson county is a metrogovernment. consequently, it is a bit strange, as nashville is where our capital is located. memphis is the largest city in the state, and shelby county is by far the largest county. memphis proper is slightly over 700,00, and shelby county is over 1 million. the metro area is 1.4 million+. it is an 8 county metro. nashville-davidson-franklin-williamson-murfreesboro-rutherford county and 10 additional counties compose the greater metro area. it is a bit silly the way things are set up. so, politics in tn can be a headache, as most of middle and east tn are republican, and most of west tn is democratic.
kingchef no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 22nd, 2011, 07:00 AM   #1960
papa_spaz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 534
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post


Most states have One really large city or metro of cities, be it capital or not, and then everybody else in the state is significantly smaller. Only these few states have two + historically similarly sized and/or resourced cities but one had to go one direction and the other had to go another.

I suspect other states with two large but disconnected cities have had to learn similarly how to thrive. What did LA and SF do? Houston and Dallas? Phily and Pitt? Cleveland and Cincy? And now OKC and Tulsa.

Any other ideas or thoughts?
There are several other states with 2 similar sized cities metros to look at. I don't know if all of them had a rivarly the way OKC and Tulsa did.


Houston and Dallas
Philly and Pitt
Cleveland and Cincy
OkC and Tulsa

Nashville and Memphis
Baton Rouge and New Orleans
Miami and Tampa
Richmond and Virginia Beach
Orlando and Jacksonville
Lexington and Louisville
Charlottle and Raleigh
San Diego and Sacramento
Austin and San Antonio
Kansas City and St. Louis

Well, that's all the big ones I can think of.

This is the only one I can best speak of: Baton Rouge and New Orleans have never had a real rivarly. New Orleans historically has always been the bigger city. In 1960 New Orleans had a city proper of 627,00 while Baton Rouge only had a city population of 152,000. Since Katrina hit both metros have become much closer but the rivarly still does not exist b/c having a similar population is not an argument here. Baton Rouge can not compete with New Orleans's history, architecture, events, downtown, tourism, and national preception. Baton Rouge is just happy being Baton Rouge.

I have lived in Austin Texas but those folks never talk bad about San Antonio. They always make fun of Houston and Dallas though. Mostly comments about the lack of culture/vibe and also to much concrete in those cities. I can only imagine what Houston/Dallas say about Austin with all the hippies/liberals/weird people in that city. But I don't know if that's a true rivarly though. Obviously all four cities are able to co-exist b/c they are all thriving great.
papa_spaz no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
oklahoma city

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu