Liverpool Population

[Keayman]

They're not but the comment was in relation to someone advocating that they do. Some of the ones already here are asylum seekers as you know and do not have jobs. The decline as you know was due to people being shipped out blindly by planners who didn't foresee this or give it the thought it required and deserved. The consequence is that as with most 'expert' findings, a reverse of circumstances is now required to fill the city. Tallies and landing flats were considered wrong a few years ago, now what do we have all over the place only they're called luxury apartments these days though many don't afford the luxury to swing a cat.

[SuperLamb]

Originally Posted by Keayman

It is indeed the greedy bosses that the Unions and I do blame, and of course the failure to follow up legisation would disallows recruitment of overseas job seekers only which has happened.

You can't advocate a law against overseas job seekers , whether you like it or not there are certain jobs that lots of British people won't do. The NHS would fall apart if it didn't import foreign labour.

[design_man]

Originally Posted by SuperLamb

You are becoming offensive now. I don't know who the mod is as I only found the site at the weekend but I suggest he or she tries to calm you down as you are starting to look stupid. I don't know or care who Rob is but this I do know-your bullying won't stop me posting. I am happy to prove who I am anytime. Understand?

SuperLamb you are not the only one to be accused in this way - free speech is threatened by such behaviour so great to see people standing up to this kind of madness.

[SuperLamb]

Originally Posted by design_man

SuperLamb you are not the only one to be accused in this way - free speech is threatened by such behaviour so great to see people standing up to this kind of madness.

Thanks design_man!

I am always being described as unique and won't let a madman's WRONG hunch drive me away. It is important to allow other people's views , it's the first time I have been accused of lying online!
I think I will be staying though

[Keayman]

Originally Posted by SuperLamb

You can't advocate a law against overseas job seekers , whether you like it or not there are certain jobs that lots of British people won't do. The NHS would fall apart if it didn't import foreign labour.

Read my post properly superlamb, I never said a law against overseas job seekers, on the contrary the government is turning a blind eye against legislation which exists against taking on only foreign labour which some bosses have tried to and have got away with.

The 'won't do' attitude isn't good enough either and is the type of mindset that needs changing and quick.

If you're claiming jobseekers allowance and don't job seek it's fraud in my book.

We need only to import labour when we have a utopian full employment situation but will we ever when it seems to be in the government's best interests to keep a level of lower classes.

[carlisle]

Originally Posted by ABACAB

As an incomer to Liverpool, of the sort who increases its social capital (my wife and I are graduates), the last thing I want to see are more immigrants.

I don't think being a graduate necessarily makes you 'increase social capital' or in any other way 'better' than non-graduates.

Yes graduates have many important skills, we need doctors and civil servants... but skills right across the range are just as important. We also suffer skills shortages among hospital cleaners, builders, entrepreneurs etc.

Also, people who contribute nothing to society aren't just drawn from those with minimal education... for every person who's never worked a day in their life, there'll be a top executive who's only ever taken from society without giving anything back.

My point anyway is that we should accept newcomers who can work, regardless of whether or not the haughty-minded ruling classes think that they are 'the sort of people who will increase social capital'

[ABACAB]

Originally Posted by carlisle

I don't think being a graduate necessarily makes you 'increase social capital' or in any other way 'better' than non-graduates.

Yes graduates have many important skills, we need doctors and civil servants... but skills right across the range are just as important. We also suffer skills shortages among hospital cleaners, builders, entrepreneurs etc.

Also, people who contribute nothing to society aren't just drawn from those with minimal education... for every person who's never worked a day in their life, there'll be a top executive who's only ever taken from society without giving anything back.

My point anyway is that we should accept newcomers who can work, regardless of whether or not the haughty-minded ruling classes think that they are 'the sort of people who will increase social capital'

Having a more skilled workforce is going to improve the economic prospects of any city, and attract further jobs for the less skilled. That is not to say those with less skills have any less intrinsic "worth" as people.

Despite its relative economic poorness, Liverpool/Merseyside has a lot going for it, not least the relatively low crime rate, and a strong sense of community. That there is a *very* ethnically homogenous population (by today's standards) in merseyside, north cheshire and west lancs - apart from a small area to the south of Liverpool City Centre - is surely not co-incidental.

The south-east of England is becoming unlivable for a typical working - middle class person in their 20s who wants to start a family. Liverpool has a large population of students who are fond of the city. Better to persuade them to stay on after graduation, than to seek to emulate Bradford, which I'm afraid is what Liverpool with a large immigrant population would be.

[Medici]

The demographic in Liverpool needs to change. This could be achieved by two means: 1) Abolish Knowsley and incorporate it into the City of Liverpool and do the same with South Sefton letting Southport go away.

2) Much of the city's population are the embattled old white working class. These are a declining group in society and Liverpool needs to inject young people, with skills into these areas particularly North Liverpool. Here the white working class need to reap the benefits of 12 years of a Labour Government through intervention by the government to improve the area enviromentally, create jobs, further improve education and health and get the long term unemployed back to work.

Economic migrants in areas such as North Liverpool would in the short term lead to resentment and possibly minor friction. But the area would benefit in other ways from diversity.

[Fei Jie]

Originally Posted by Medici

The demographic in Liverpool needs to change. This could be achieved by two means: 1) Abolish Knowsley and incorporate it into the City of Liverpool and do the same with South Sefton letting Southport go away.

2) Much of the city's population are the embattled old white working class. These are a declining group in society and Liverpool needs to inject young people, with skills into these areas particularly North Liverpool. Here the white working class need to reap the benefits of 12 years of a Labour Government through intervention by the government to improve the area enviromentally, create jobs, further improve education and health and get the long term unemployed back to work.

Economic migrants in areas such as North Liverpool would in the short term lead to resentment and possibly minor friction. But the area would benefit in other ways from diversity.

100% spot on. Great post.

[guenuk]

Anyone know whether the population of knowsley has increased or decreased?

[McGrath]

Over here in Aragon a recurring issue is the depopulation of rural areas, whilst urban areas become increasingly over-crowded. One such town, Castelnou, has launched a scheme to add to its 150 inhabitants. So far it has attracted 50,000 people interested in taking up the offer, and the first 500 "new" inhabitants are expected to move in between now and the end of the year .

As far as I can make out, the scheme/offer involves the following:

• Newly-built 4-bedroom houses for reduced rent or (relatively) reduced purchase price
• Similar incentives for companies who wish to relocate or establish themselves in the town
• For those who want to build their own houses to live in, FREE land within certain boundaries.

Conditions include:

• Those wishing to take up the accommodation offer must be married couples/civil partnerships WITH CHILDREN, as the town sees its future based on a bottom-heavy population pyramid
• Businesses taking up the offer of locating in Castelnou are "incentivised" to employ both "old" and incoming inhabitants.

Reading about it made me think of some of the advantages that were put the way of new towns over our cities. However, could English cities or parts of cities introduce similar schemes? I was interested to note how direct the scheme is - developers and speculators are clearly discouraged or disenfranchised.

What do people think?

[WirlieG]

Originally Posted by guenuk

Anyone know whether the population of knowsley has increased or decreased?

Down by 300 according to the ONS...

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbas...asp?vlnk=15106

Specifically...

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...d-24-06-10.zip

and

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...d-13-05-10.zip

Table 9 in each zip.

[Neilsatiscitycentre]

Originally Posted by McGrath

Over here in Aragon a recurring issue is the depopulation of rural areas, whilst urban areas become increasingly over-crowded. One such town, Castelnou, has launched a scheme to add to its 150 inhabitants. So far it has attracted 50,000 people interested in taking up the offer, and the first 500 "new" inhabitants are expected to move in between now and the end of the year .

As far as I can make out, the scheme/offer involves the following:

• Newly-built 4-bedroom houses for reduced rent or (relatively) reduced purchase price
• Similar incentives for companies who wish to relocate or establish themselves in the town
• For those who want to build their own houses to live in, FREE land within certain boundaries.

Conditions include:

• Those wishing to take up the accommodation offer must be married couples/civil partnerships WITH CHILDREN, as the town sees its future based on a bottom-heavy population pyramid
• Businesses taking up the offer of locating in Castelnou are "incentivised" to employ both "old" and incoming inhabitants.

Reading about it made me think of some of the advantages that were put the way of new towns over our cities. However, could English cities or parts of cities introduce similar schemes? I was interested to note how direct the scheme is - developers and speculators are clearly discouraged or disenfranchised.

What do people think?

When I was living in Spain this last year, I saw a TV report on the news about depopulation in rural Spain. It was quite amazing. Spain has some of the least densly populated parts of Europe, only matched somewhere in eastern Europe. There was a village for sale up in the north with about 20 houses and a school for 700,000 euros.

In answer to your question, I think it would be very difficult to encourage repopulation into parts of the inner city without spending huge amounts on houses and facilities. Encouraging a certain group of people to move in is fraught with difficulties, it would be so hard to monitor the system of grants etc unless you knocked at people's houses at bedtime every night to make sure they were tucked up in bed to confirm they were living were they claimed to be.

[AnonyMiss]

It's sad having to move away to find a good job and better prospects. I have noticed that in some industries it's harder justifying staying in Liverpool and i'm not sure how to attract people back without better wages and jobs.

A lot of students stay on but you need people who are born in Liverpool to stay and when I think of my family , 90% moved away.

[21C Liverpool]

Originally Posted by AnonyMiss

It's sad having to move away to find a good job and better prospects. I have noticed that in some industries it's harder justifying staying in Liverpool and i'm not sure how to attract people back without better wages and jobs.

A lot of students stay on but you need people who are born in Liverpool to stay and when I think of my family , 90% moved away.

Its because there are no real jobs here. All you have to do is look online at the job sites and the plethora of thankless sales jobs with "negotiable" salaries. If you look past that all you get is things like Barclays which are equally a dead end for most people not to mention Graduates.

We have the cultural offering, nice places to live, great heritage and new architecture, good connections and a better than ever retail offering. We simply dont attract enough large reputable organisations who are willing to pay and treat their staff well.

I have a friend who works in Royal & Sun allliance who was tricked along several "stages" of interview into understanding he was being selected for his skills and experience and therefore his salary level would be retained. When he eventually got past the target hungry Recruitment consultants (who will tell you anything to get you to interview) and was offered a job after a day long Krpyton factor interview assessment day, he was offered a salary that was 5000 a year less than he previously earned.

Essentially starting on the bottom rung with a crazy shift pattern that is largely unsociable hours and rather than simply doing customer service he had sales targets slapped on him aswell for a £14,500 job that was advertised as no sales.

As the current market is dry, he had no choice but to take it - the circus getting to the job offer alone was too draining to let go by refusing.

So in short, a graduate, mid twenties with a long line of experience and skills earned through hard work and progression is tricked and reduced to working in sales until 10pm most nights.

Its just one example why people with a brain will simply say "f**k this, im off" when it comes to staying in Liverpool.

We need better opportunities and a recognition that if you are a graduate with a strong degree and demonstrable skills you should be able to find a decent job and a reasonable salary. Not a nervous breakdown and an insult.

[Martin S]

That's a good post 21C Liverpool. I suppose that I could add my own experience to that by saying that I have never managed to get a permanent job in Liverpool and that I too had to move away in order to find employment in my line of work.

However, you have to remember that these are just anecdotes - the experiences of a handful of people. It leads to blanket declarations such as 'there are no jobs in Liverpool' or 'all jobs in Liverpool are lowly paid and on short term contracts'. Neither of these statements are true but add to the rhetoric of depression which we often find on threads such as this.

I guess that a lot of us most spend time thinking just what are Liverpool and the City Region's strengths and how the economy can develop in the future. It is not at all straightforward but I think there are some grounds for optimism.

I think the first thing is to understand that economies evolve. When I was growing up, the idea that Liverpool would one day be a major tourist destination would have been considered laughable but now it is a major staple of the city's economy with potential for further but not unlimited expansion. Perhaps we don't value it as much as we should simply because it is not something that we see as a traditional Liverpool industry.

Linked to that is the growth of the airport. That has been phenomenal over the last fifteen years with almost a 1000% increase in passenger throughput. Clearly, a lot of that is down to the growth in the low cost sector and the more limited growth in the business sector reflects the weakness of the local economy. However, there is a great potential for further expansion and though, whilst it may be fanciful to think that LJLA could overtake Manchester as the North West's main airport, the possibility that it could have half of that airport's passengers in the future is no longer a pipe dream.

I really believe though that one of the city's greatest strengths - something that we tend to downplay because we are so familiar with it - is the shear presence of the city - the understanding that Liverpool is not just another provincial city.

OK, you can't bank a photograph of the waterfront or the unique culture of the city but what these things illustrate is the fact that Liverpool has the potential that few non-capital cities have to be a true world city. Presence may seem to be an ephemeral thing but cities all over are struggling to obtain it. Does Dubai really need to have the tallest block of flats in the world? - I doubt it but what it has done is to give that city more presence on the international stage.

Liverpool definitely has more presence than it did in the last decades of the twentieth century. Capital of Culture and major redevelopment has seen to that. However, if we are to get that step change that elevates the city another notch or two in the rank of world cities, it is not going to come from another museum or another government department setting up an office here.

The only organisation that seems to grasp this idea is the dreaded Peel. We may scoff at Liverpool and Wirral Waters but does any other organisation, public or private, express such confidence in the future of the city?

Maybe Peel are not the people to deliver the final vision but what is important is having that vision.

[design_man]

Agree with all of this, but it's important to look at the urban region as a whole when assessing both population and job numbers. Like most conurbations, perhaps more so, Liverpool spread out, sometimes deliberately (eg Warrington, Runcorn, Northwich, Skem) and sometimes just organically.

So whilst the urban region probably has lost both population and jobs, it's nothing like as dramatic as if you look at the core towns of the conurbation, like Liverpool and Birkenhead.

[Martin S]

Originally Posted by design_man

Agree with all of this, but it's important to look at the urban region as a whole when assessing both population and job numbers. Like most conurbations, perhaps more so, Liverpool spread out, sometimes deliberately (eg Warrington, Runcorn, Northwich, Skem) and sometimes just organically.

So whilst the urban region probably has lost both population and jobs, it's nothing like as dramatic as if you look at the core towns of the conurbation, like Liverpool and Birkenhead.

Very true DM. Liverpool despite the population loss still has a very high population density.

[auzdafluff]

Originally Posted by Martin S

That's a good post 21C Liverpool. I suppose that I could add my own experience to that by saying that I have never managed to get a permanent job in Liverpool and that I too had to move away in order to find employment in my line of work.

However, you have to remember that these are just anecdotes - the experiences of a handful of people. It leads to blanket declarations such as 'there are no jobs in Liverpool' or 'all jobs in Liverpool are lowly paid and on short term contracts'. Neither of these statements are true but add to the rhetoric of depression which we often find on threads such as this.

I guess that a lot of us most spend time thinking just what are Liverpool and the City Region's strengths and how the economy can develop in the future. It is not at all straightforward but I think there are some grounds for optimism.

I think the first thing is to understand that economies evolve. When I was growing up, the idea that Liverpool would one day be a major tourist destination would have been considered laughable but now it is a major staple of the city's economy with potential for further but not unlimited expansion. Perhaps we don't value it as much as we should simply because it is not something that we see as a traditional Liverpool industry.

Linked to that is the growth of the airport. That has been phenomenal over the last fifteen years with almost a 1000% increase in passenger throughput. Clearly, a lot of that is down to the growth in the low cost sector and the more limited growth in the business sector reflects the weakness of the local economy. However, there is a great potential for further expansion and though, whilst it may be fanciful to think that LJLA could overtake Manchester as the North West's main airport, the possibility that it could have half of that airport's passengers in the future is no longer a pipe dream.

I really believe though that one of the city's greatest strengths - something that we tend to downplay because we are so familiar with it - is the shear presence of the city - the understanding that Liverpool is not just another provincial city.

OK, you can't bank a photograph of the waterfront or the unique culture of the city but what these things illustrate is the fact that Liverpool has the potential that few non-capital cities have to be a true world city. Presence may seem to be an ephemeral thing but cities all over are struggling to obtain it. Does Dubai really need to have the tallest block of flats in the world? - I doubt it but what it has done is to give that city more presence on the international stage.

Liverpool definitely has more presence than it did in the last decades of the twentieth century. Capital of Culture and major redevelopment has seen to that. However, if we are to get that step change that elevates the city another notch or two in the rank of world cities, it is not going to come from another museum or another government department setting up an office here.

The only organisation that seems to grasp this idea is the dreaded Peel. We may scoff at Liverpool and Wirral Waters but does any other organisation, public or private, express such confidence in the future of the city?

Maybe Peel are not the people to deliver the final vision but what is important is having that vision.

I agree. But when I look at my own personal experience, vs that of all my friends, I can't help but wonder whether or not there is some truth in it.

I'm a journalist and had to write unpaid for three years and then a further two at low freelance rates to get a full time position. (Granted, those five years were the last year of college, while I was at university and a year after I graduated and I was trying to become a games journalist, which is incredibly tough).

That job was based in Hertford. I didn't really want to move, but I didn't have a choice. Two years later, and as a deputy editor, I decided to move back to the north and work freelance. While that worked for a while, the recession hit and wiped out most of my freelance (like £1,500 a month worth).

That meant I had to look for a new full time job. After six months of trying to find a journalism/media job up here, I had to give up and start looking down south again. I eventually got one, which granted is a little further than I wanted to move...in Dubai.

My friends on the other hand. Well, the two best paid ones are a Quantity Surveyor (who is the only one who has a 'proper' career) and the deputy manager of at a small supermarket chain. All the others work at supermarkets as regular staff, work in care homes, other retailers etc. All for a pittance (i.e. the minimum wage).

Some of them work just as hard as me, yet because their job doesn't always require as much 'experience' in the eyes of their employers, some of them earn a quarter of what I earn a year. Full time.

That I fear is the reality of the job situation, not just in Liverpool and the surrounding towns (I'm from Runcorn originally), but for the whole country at the moment.

[Neilsatiscitycentre]

Originally Posted by Martin S

Very true DM. Liverpool despite the population loss still has a very high population density.

After Greater London and West Midlands, Merseyside is the most densely populated metropolitan region in England, pass it on.