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Old September 10th, 2008, 11:07 PM   #61
edubejar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishevy View Post
I'm not saying this isn't true, I'm just saying that just because you have 2 cases like this doesn't mean it's always the case. You have plenty of cases where bilingualism actually worked in terms of keeping the mother tongue. For example, a large majority of Flemish people used to be (and most still are actually) bilingual with French, still most of them haven't abandoned Dutch. A nice case is also the German community in Belgium and the German-speaking community in South Tyrol.
I do think that a population that increasingly becomes bilingual in an urban area like Montreal's can experience a shift if (if!) that language is the dominant language of the country or region. That is not saying that becoming bilingual or trilingual jeopordizes your first language. To put it in context of Montreal, the city has many Anglophones (with varying degrees of French knowledge and usage). Since English is more dominant as a language both in the world and especially in Canada and North America, a person, usually kids and teens and young adults, can easily find themselves speaking English to accomodate the anglophone that speaks no or little English. When francophones gather in Montreal without an anglophone, they can find themselves using more and more English words (Franglais). This in some can slowly shift within the same or next generation from Franglais to English with only the occasional French words. This is especially true if the person experiencing this shift moves to a neighorhood of Montreal or Greater Montreal that has many anglophones.

But I don't think it happens from speaking English, thus being bilingual. It's from doing that in an environment were people and media are more and more English-speaking only. So it's not like in Germany or the Netherlands or Scandinavia where the younger population speak good English. I think for Montreal it's different for the reason I tried to describe. In those countries, you have to speak the national language for most jobs (except free-lance, arts, some consulting, etc.)

I have a friend from Montreal who is an example of someone who has not been affected by being bilingual. But he is not your typical, typical Montréalais. He is fairly well educated, travelled, (lived in France), reads French novels, etc. But I've heard many times much less educated and travelled Montréalais who are of French-speaking origin but they speak Franglais among themselves (with no Angophone with them). Half of their conversation is in French and half in English yet they are all francophones. On top of that, the French they do use is very poorly articulated (I mean, very poorly, not just a Quebec accent) and full of words that are not in a French dictionary. Again, I'm not referring to the accent, but the words themselves.
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Old September 11th, 2008, 02:27 AM   #62
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What a beautiful hometown, thanks Habsfanman!
How I wish I could sit down with you and talk about the language issue Brisavoine, in some other context. As a born and raised Montrealer, fully bilingual, but with an English last name, I could give you some insight as to the flipside of your proposition. Let's just say, I love both sides of Montreal, and in my opinion bilingualism is not an enemy, but our greatest asset in this era of globalization, as well as the attraction of many to our wonderful city. Cheers.
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Old September 11th, 2008, 02:46 AM   #63
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thanks for share the photos Habsfanman, their a beautiful pics, and i love both sides of Montreal Too, what do you mean with the bilingualism is not an enemy Coral?, i speak two languages the english and the spanish, actually im in the french school, im not from here, im from Mexico, but i dont understand ur com^up there?

cheers.
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Old September 11th, 2008, 03:01 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edubejar View Post
When francophones gather in Montreal without an anglophone, they can find themselves using more and more English words (Franglais).
I'm not sure that this is happening on a large scale in Montréal (people who live there can make more informed comment than me on this), but what you're describing here is exactly what has been happening in the Moncton-Dieppe area. First the francophones there have become massively billingual, and now they speak an heavily anglicized French which they call "Chiac". You can find out more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiac
Quote:
Originally Posted by edubejar View Post
This in some can slowly shift within the same or next generation from Franglais to English with only the occasional French words.
This woman below, who is the new leader of the Parti Québecois (the party that called two independence referendums in Québec already), has been mocked a lot in Québec because of her English from what I understand, but from an outsider's point of view I think the fact that in 2008 a Québecois political leader still sucks so bad at English is a pretty reassuring proof that French in Québec is still very healthy. The day they'll all speak flawless English, I'll be less confident. But for now Edubejar, as Ms. Marois says at the end of the video: "don't be inquiète"!

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Old September 11th, 2008, 05:28 PM   #65
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This topic is extremely interesting for me, because in a few months I'm doing my degree and the topic will be roughly "the linguistic situation in Canada (with the emphasis on translation between English and French)". I have to say I agree with most of you, but still these situations are each of them separately very complex.

I mean, if you take the situation in Belgium for example, francophones have been always (since the creation of Belgium at least) a relative minority (40%), but still the language shift in Brussels area occurred during the 18th and 19th centuries, when locals simply slowly abandoned their local Dutch dialect and adopted French, just because socially speaking, French was THE language of Belgium (the language of social success). Montreal on the other hand was a city in a majority English speaking country that was heavily anglophone, but has become increasingly francophone in the last 50 years. So I wouldn't say it is becoming anglicized, I'd say that French language actually gained some terrain in Montreal in the last 30 years, because people stopped associating only English with social success and also started to acknowledge French as a language of social success. This linguistic shifts occur much faster and more obviously in urban centres than in the countryside.
For example in Austria-Hungary all major urban centres were German-speaking: Prague, Budapest, and even smaller provincial centres like Bratislava, Zagreb and Ljubljana (although the surrounding countryside spoke respective local languages). German was associated with societal success, so being a "bourgeois" in Austria-Hungary also meant being German-speaking, no matter in which part of the country you lived.
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Old September 12th, 2008, 06:14 AM   #66
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Thomyorke, I also speak Spanish, and I love latin america. My comment was in response to the comments made by Brisavione. if you want you can scroll his ideas over the last couple of posts before, as he has some interesting perspective on this topic. Saludos tio.
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Old September 12th, 2008, 06:51 AM   #67
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Quote:
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I know, this has a little ironic tone to it. Of course the Quebecois are way to proud to ever give up their French heritage. However I agree with you that outside of Quebec in NA, French doesn't have a bright future.
Great conversation! Here is a link to a France 2 program from 2006, 'POURQUOI LE CANADA FAIT-IL RÊVER?'. It's a French perspective on Canada, particularly immigration. I recommend that you watch the entire show but if you don't have the time (almost 2 hours), the part that deals specifically with Québec begins around 20:40 of part 2.

Some great tunes from Jean Leloup!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xri...-rever-12_blog

http://www.dailymotion.com/related/x...-rever-22_blog

Last edited by Habfanman; September 12th, 2008 at 08:43 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2008, 07:47 AM   #68
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More photos from Flickr and me.. this is a photo thread afterall!

The Canal de Lachine and Canal de l'Aqueduc are so diverse that you have to present them in segments. They change so dramatically from one end to the other that it requires 100's photos in order to even begin to do them justice. Here is a small fragment. Follow this waterway and it will take you directly downtown.
















Last edited by Habfanman; September 12th, 2008 at 08:02 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #69
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@Habfanman Great photos and thanks for your links, I will be glad to take time and watch them!
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Old September 12th, 2008, 11:27 PM   #70
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so classy!
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Old September 13th, 2008, 03:05 AM   #71
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Everywhere outside of Montréal is Renfrew, Ontario

..such an awesome city!
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Old September 13th, 2008, 08:39 PM   #72
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@habfanman, @brisavoine if anyone knows where I could find reliable maps and statistics about linguistic situation in Montreal, I need them!
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Old September 13th, 2008, 10:35 PM   #73
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International Flora Montréal is held at the eastern entrance to the Lachine Canal (or the western extremity of Vieux-Port), 15 km's from the photos in my last post which are of the western end of the canal. Participants from around the world design interactive urban gardens which are in use from late spring until mid autumn. There is a different theme each year.
















































Last edited by Habfanman; September 13th, 2008 at 10:59 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2008, 10:45 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
I'm not sure that this is happening on a large scale in Montréal (people who live there can make more informed comment than me on this), but what you're describing here is exactly what has been happening in the Moncton-Dieppe area. First the francophones there have become massively billingual, and now they speak an heavily anglicized French which they call "Chiac". You can find out more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiac

This woman below, who is the new leader of the Parti Québecois (the party that called two independence referendums in Québec already), has been mocked a lot in Québec because of her English from what I understand, but from an outsider's point of view I think the fact that in 2008 a Québecois political leader still sucks so bad at English is a pretty reassuring proof that French in Québec is still very healthy. The day they'll all speak flawless English, I'll be less confident. But for now Edubejar, as Ms. Marois says at the end of the video: "don't be inquiète"!

je m'excuse, je suis très fatigué cette matin, lol
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Old September 14th, 2008, 11:12 AM   #75
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bountiful.... !
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Old September 14th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #76
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A favourite weekly event is PiknicElectronik held every Sunday (and some Saturday's) from May to September in Parc Jean-Drapeau. Thousands of people gather to dance to top international and local DJ's under the Alexander Calder sculpture 'l'Homme'. The beautiful physical setting and super-relax atmosphere make it a great place to hang out whether you dance or not. You can bring your own supplies or purchase booze and food on-site and you can bring your kids and pets too!

http://piknicelectronik.com/organisation/

There is a winter version, IGLOOFEST as well. More on that later..

Photos by me and Miguel Legault, official Picknik photographer @ Flickr:





































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Old September 19th, 2008, 04:11 AM   #77
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The winter version of PiknicElectronik is called Igloofest and is held on Quai Jacques-Cartier in Vieux-Port. You can't have much more outdoor fun than this in -25 C weather!

From me and DoùDoù (whom I've met at almost every musical event.. she's everywhere!) @ Flickr











































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Old September 20th, 2008, 11:05 PM   #78
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This is a 30 minute walk from Parc Laurier to av Mont-Royal in the eastern half of the Plateau neighbourhood, the 'quieter' bit. It's representative of the entire neighbourhood but once you hit rue Mont-Royal to the south or rue St-Denis to the west, you enter the 24 hr world of clubs, bistros, restos, galleries etc.



































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Old September 21st, 2008, 04:01 AM   #79
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I love Montreal; in fact I'm in love with Montreal! Je t'aime indeed.

Great thread.
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Old September 21st, 2008, 05:28 AM   #80
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I love Montreal; in fact I'm in love with Montreal! Je t'aime indeed.

Great thread.
Gappa, you wouldn't believe how similar in vibe Melbs and Montréal are. They are completely different insofar as geography, climate, language etc., but the vibe mate.. they should be sister cities!

In my perfect world, I'd head to Melbourne the day after xmas (I love snow, but only for 2 or 3 months) and head back to MTL in May. A couple of months to check out other places would be nice as well..

Where do I get a job like that?
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