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Old October 19th, 2008, 08:57 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I have absolutely no idea what my argument has to do with feelings towards the USA. You've completely lost me when you start talking about 'knee jerk' US haters. What has that got to do with Canadians being ignorant of their own country? Nothing, actually.

Canada and the USA share a common North American culture. Some of it originated in the USA, some of it originated in Canada, but most of it grew and developed in unison, being influenced by both nations. To say that anglo-Canada is 'US light' because we also have big box stores is such a distortion of the facts that it goes beyond insult, and can only be described as shocking and sad.

I hate big box stores too, and I fight mall development vigorously. Just because you hate them, doesn't mean that it is some US import and we have to defend ourselves from this horrible US cultural invasion. Huge big box outlets existed in Canada decades ago. Ever heard of Kent Building Supplies? Just because a US company named Wal-Mart capitalized on the big box format and is now copied, does not make anglo-Canada a US clone. It's as ridiculous as saying that the US is Canada light because they built suburbs everywhere like the one built in Don Mills, Ontario back in the 1950's. Except for Manhattan of course! They resisted this Canadianization. Your perception is absurd, but one snooty Canadians like to use who think everything bad is American, and the good stuff is Canadian. We're just as responsible for many of the blights on our country as they are. It's insulting to the US, to point the finger at them when it is simply an evolution of our own society and theirs developing in unison.

Whether many Canadians watch US sports leagues is neither here nor there. We gave them those sports and they flourished in their country. By your definition, that makes the US, 'Canada light'. Canadian cultural domination of the US.

The light bulb isn't a cultural example, but that was not the point. The point is that you can't label Canada 'US light' for having a big box store any more than you can label the US 'Canada light' for introducing light bulbs. It's just plain silliness.

What does me watching Much Music or Flashpoint have to do with me being off the mark? Off the mark with what? You asked me what shows I watched, and I told you. I know what show I watched last week. Then you go off start talking about BBM ratings?????? I suppose Montreal is 'France light' because people watch TV5? And by the way, a theatre is a place where live performance takes place. The proper term is 'cinema'.

Instead of insulting Canadians and pointing out Canada's shortcomings, which we are all aware of, why don't you go watch Paschendale tomorrow?

Why are you talking about the built form of Toronto vs. Montreal? If you want old anglo-Canadian versions try Halifax, Nova Scotia or Saint John, New Brunswick. Newer areas of the US look like newer versions of Canada simply because of the era in which they were built. It has zero to do with Montreal resisting a cultural import, and everything to do with the age when most of Montreal was built. Ever been to Laval? If the city core of Montreal was mostly developed after WW2, it wouldn't look like it does today.

It's not US culture Montreal is resisting. It's modern North American culture. Downtown Montreal is simply resisting that in the same way that downtown Toronto is resisting that, and downtown Halifax is resisting that.

Your arguments are as illogical as saying that Manhattan has no intention of becoming the next Yorkdale Shopping Centre of Toronto because it is resisting Canadianization. All they are doing is preserving the atmosphere of Manhattan that they cherish.

That's not a Montreal phenomeon. It's an aversion to modern North America. And I ditched cable in 2002.
Ok, now I see that you're insane!

I'll illustrate in point form and you can take issue with whatever you like.

1) Americans watch virtually no Canadian TV, Canadians watch 95% American TV, Canadians watch very little Canadian TV (care to argue this?)

2) Canada has virtually no domestic film industry therefore, neither Canadians nor Americans watch Canadian films. 95% of films in Canadian cinemas are American (and nobody in English Canada says "Lets go to the cinema"! I grew up in Ontario so get real and don't be such an pomey ass)

3) There is hardly any Canadian anything in the U.S. In Canada we have McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Subway, Dominos, Little Caesars, Quiznos, Hooters, Outback Shack, Gap, American Eagle, Sears, Old Navy.. do you really want me to continue?

4) If you think that the close-to-zero presence that we have in the U.S. and the overwhelming dominance that the U.S. has here is a good example of 'developing in unison', I hope that you never get married!

5) Yes, I've been to Laval (re-read "the burbs are the burbs")

6) Yes, I lived in Halifax and have been to St. John (re-read "Other cities have a few old buildings sprinkled here and there.. ")

7) Yes, people in Québec watch TV5 though not enough to crack the top 30 in the ratings and definately not enough to take 27 of the top 30.

8) I'm assuming you're either drunk or stoned if you think that the NBA, NFL, MLB are examples of Canadian cultural domination of the U.S., and you must be halfway through an uncut 8-ball if you think that I was insinuating that!

9) Kent Building Supplies=blueprint for Wal Mart??? HILARIOUS!!!

10) So downtown Toronto is resisting is it? (re-read section on searching for fast food/big box joints in Canadian cities or go down to Ad Nauseum Square "Toronto Life Square" and let me know how the resistance is going)

11) U.S. suburbs are modelled after Don Mills? I highly doubt that but if it were true, would it be something to be proud of?
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Old October 19th, 2008, 12:24 PM   #142
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Habfanman is absolutely right. Montréal is unique
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Old October 19th, 2008, 04:59 PM   #143
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NO MORE ARGUING!! ALL Canadian cities are unique and they each offer different things to different people.

Now, I'm all excited about my new camera so.. photos!
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Old October 19th, 2008, 07:16 PM   #144
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It's true Canadians watch a lot of American television & film -but really the contributions of English speaking Canadians to that television and film, etc. are many. The actors, writers, director etc. are Canadian as well as American. Canadians form a disproportionate portion of American culture and that can't be denied. Just because it comes out of Los Angeles or New York does not make it any less Canadian or any more American.

English speaking Canadians and Americans share a common cultural bond. Viewing American culture as an "other" is a mistake and underestimation of Canadian contributions to North American culture as a whole.

I'd always make the argument that watching an American film is a part of the North American cultural experience and it hardly has anything to do with some silly Canadian content rules.

English speaking Canadians are in an enviable position because of their shared cultural and language bonds with the U.S. they are able to seek a higher level of fame and fortune in the U.S. and when they do it doesn't make them any less Canadian. This goes for people from all over the English speaking world including Australia and Britain. The difference is, because of a similar accent and proximity the Canadian contributions tend to go unnoticed.

Many Quebeckers and many Canadians have extremely narrow views of what constitutes culture and the contributions to culture. It's smug imperialism, it's kinda lame and it's all part of the ever present inferiority complex which grips the land. "America-lite" is a silly insult -because it's not really an insult at all -it's true in a way but often meant to mean the worst of American culture, like the big box culture, suburbia and Girls Gone Wild. The United States is certainly not the cultural backwater many foreigners make it out to be and if people traveled more and watched TMZ less they'd understand that.

And Old Montreal has a mix of northern French architecture and a cleaner New Orleans (colonial French) without the Caribbean influence (if you are looking for comparisons which is what people do when they travel). I find it funny but many Montrealers (not all mind you) are obsessed with the uniqueness of their city. Sure it is unique but so are most cities in North America. It's part of the city's charm but also in a way taken way to seriously by its citizens. New Yorkers do it too but it's usually just annoying people like Cindy Adams. Most don't care -they have better things to do.


"3) There is hardly any Canadian anything in the U.S. In Canada we have McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Subway, Dominos, Little Caesars, Quiznos, Hooters, Outback Shack, Gap, American Eagle, Sears, Old Navy.. do you really want me to continue?


There's plenty Canadian in the U.S. - Aldo (retailer of ugly shoes) -and i fact a lot of shoe retailers/lines (weirdly), Club Monaco (now owned by Polo), TD, Royal Bank, Tim Horton's, plenty of clothing lines etc., and probably more so than a nation just ten percent of the population probably deserves. It's difficult to be a great exporter when your country has a fraction of the capital available. And it really shouldn't be anymore. If you want cultural proliferation, as a Canadian you are going to have to move to the United States to do it. It's hard to be a tycoon in Canada and as we know there are more millionaires living in Chicago than all of Canada.

I think Canada does pretty soundly vis a vis its contributions to world culture (including literature, music and art).

Last edited by Gerrad; October 19th, 2008 at 07:47 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2008, 07:26 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomyorke26 View Post
great Pics From Montreal, its a Shame Summer is Gone.
Just out of curiosity, what was the weather and maximum temperature in Montréal yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Here in Paris it was sunny with a few clouds yesterday, and 16 degrees. Today was perfectly sunny with no clouds and 17 degrees. Tomorrow will be partly cloudy partly sunny, with a balmy 19 degrees. It doesn't feel like summer though, because the sun is quite low on the horizon now, even at midday. Paris is significantly more to the north than Montréal.
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Old October 19th, 2008, 07:34 PM   #146
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Back to pics, please...
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Old October 20th, 2008, 03:01 AM   #147
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Parc Mont-Royal

Our little downtown 'mountain', Mont-Royal was named by Jacques-Cartier in 1535. It has an illuminated cross on top, which is currently undergoing a rebuild, and great views of the city can be had from the belvederes or lookouts. The park was designed by Frederick Law Olmstead and is beautiful year-round, but I particularly like the fall. It's also a great place to go in the winter when Lac du Castor (Beaver Lake) turns into a skating rink, and there are groomed trails for cross country skiing, snowshoeing and awesome slides for tubing or tobogganing.

Interesting note: No building in Montréal is allowed to be taller than the mountain thus preserving the views both from and of Mont-Royal.




For comparison, Lac du Castor in September. Still green!


Last weekend.






















































































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Old October 20th, 2008, 03:45 AM   #148
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Fantastic foliage!!! Dreamy....
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Old October 20th, 2008, 03:57 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Just out of curiosity, what was the weather and maximum temperature in Montréal yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Here in Paris it was sunny with a few clouds yesterday, and 16 degrees. Today was perfectly sunny with no clouds and 17 degrees. Tomorrow will be partly cloudy partly sunny, with a balmy 19 degrees. It doesn't feel like summer though, because the sun is quite low on the horizon now, even at midday. Paris is significantly more to the north than Montréal.
Yesterday: 10c, ?
Today (Sunday): 10c, sunny
Tomorrow: 13c, variable clouds
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Old October 20th, 2008, 04:11 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Just out of curiosity, what was the weather and maximum temperature in Montréal yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Here in Paris it was sunny with a few clouds yesterday, and 16 degrees. Today was perfectly sunny with no clouds and 17 degrees. Tomorrow will be partly cloudy partly sunny, with a balmy 19 degrees. It doesn't feel like summer though, because the sun is quite low on the horizon now, even at midday. Paris is significantly more to the north than Montréal.
The weather has been beautiful and sunny brisavoine but it is beginning to become cold. The daytime temperature has been hitting the low teens and it has been getting close to freezing in the evening. Hopefully we'll get a few days of Indian Summer before the end of the month. It's all downhill once November arrives!
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Old October 20th, 2008, 01:59 PM   #151
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Beautiful colour of Montreal...!
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Old October 20th, 2008, 06:04 PM   #152
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Thank you for the great photos of a great city but no thanks for insulting the rest of Canada after posting them.
You hate it when people compare Montreal to other cities but then have no problem labeling the rest of Canada as "big box America lite".
If you don't like people comparing Montreal to other places than you should take your own advice and shut up about the rest of the country.
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Old October 20th, 2008, 07:14 PM   #153
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To repeat:

"ALL Canadian cities are unique and they each offer different things to different people."

-END-
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Old October 21st, 2008, 12:55 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Just out of curiosity, what was the weather and maximum temperature in Montréal yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Here in Paris it was sunny with a few clouds yesterday, and 16 degrees. Today was perfectly sunny with no clouds and 17 degrees. Tomorrow will be partly cloudy partly sunny, with a balmy 19 degrees. It doesn't feel like summer though, because the sun is quite low on the horizon now, even at midday. Paris is significantly more to the north than Montréal.

Gulf Stream

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Old October 21st, 2008, 01:15 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by christos-greece View Post
Habfanman is absolutely right. Montréal is unique
No one is arguing that it isn't.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 02:11 AM   #156
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Ok, now I see that you're insane!

I'll illustrate in point form and you can take issue with whatever you like.

1) Americans watch virtually no Canadian TV, Canadians watch 95% American TV, Canadians watch very little Canadian TV (care to argue this?)

2) Canada has virtually no domestic film industry therefore, neither Canadians nor Americans watch Canadian films. 95% of films in Canadian cinemas are American (and nobody in English Canada says "Lets go to the cinema"! I grew up in Ontario so get real and don't be such an pomey ass)

3) There is hardly any Canadian anything in the U.S. In Canada we have McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Subway, Dominos, Little Caesars, Quiznos, Hooters, Outback Shack, Gap, American Eagle, Sears, Old Navy.. do you really want me to continue?

4) If you think that the close-to-zero presence that we have in the U.S. and the overwhelming dominance that the U.S. has here is a good example of 'developing in unison', I hope that you never get married!

5) Yes, I've been to Laval (re-read "the burbs are the burbs")

6) Yes, I lived in Halifax and have been to St. John (re-read "Other cities have a few old buildings sprinkled here and there.. ")

7) Yes, people in Québec watch TV5 though not enough to crack the top 30 in the ratings and definately not enough to take 27 of the top 30.

8) I'm assuming you're either drunk or stoned if you think that the NBA, NFL, MLB are examples of Canadian cultural domination of the U.S., and you must be halfway through an uncut 8-ball if you think that I was insinuating that!

9) Kent Building Supplies=blueprint for Wal Mart??? HILARIOUS!!!

10) So downtown Toronto is resisting is it? (re-read section on searching for fast food/big box joints in Canadian cities or go down to Ad Nauseum Square "Toronto Life Square" and let me know how the resistance is going)

11) U.S. suburbs are modelled after Don Mills? I highly doubt that but if it were true, would it be something to be proud of?

Point form, and I'm allowed to disagree with what I want? OK. By the way, I've heard all of your arguments the last 20 years a thousand times over, but I'll play along.
Answer 1 - 11 You asked for no more arguments, but at the same time asked for an answer, so I'll try to do both.

1. No, I don't care to argue it because that has nothing to do with Canada being a clone, and everything to do with Canadian tv and film talent working for more money south of the border. Next:

2. No, I don't care to argue it for exactly the same reasons as the first irrelevant topic you've chosen to bring to the table. Canadians want quality tv that speaks to Canadian culture. If a Canadian isn't capable of delivering it, we'll go to who ever will. Next:

3. No, stop. Your line of reasoning is just digging a deeper hole for yourself. You don't want to argue economic-geography with me. Trust me on this one. I'll skirt the topic and simply put it this way. The US economy is 9 times the size of the Canadian economy because they have 9 times our population. By extension, there will be 9 times as many US businesses as Canadian ones. The law of business and the law of mathematics states that big fish eat little fish. If Chinese auto firms one day buy out GM, Ford, and Chrysler, would that make Americans 'China light' for buying product from a Chinese owned firm? No. Ownership of a business is irrelevant in determining cultural domination. Economic domination is another matter. (Not the same thing!!!)

Not only do you not differentiate between what culture means and what a GDP means, but your statement also shows a glaring unfamiliarity with globalization, supply chains, and the complex inter-relation between a myriad inputs and the domestic economy at large. GDP is related to culture, because many cultural industries have attached, an intrinsic dollar value, but it simply makes no sense to measure culture according to where a head office is of the burger chain, of the burger I just ate. Absurd as this connection you've made is, I'll play along for the benefit of your argument.

Chains? There are over 2000 Canadian owned retail bank outlets in the US today, and climbing rapidly. There are over 3000 outlets of Canadian convenience store operator, Alimentation Couche-Tard, there are over 200 Tim Horton's open with more on the way. Same goes with Irving Oil gas stations, Lululemon, Jean-Coutu owned drug stores, La Senza stores, and Aldo. To quote you, "Would you like me to continue?"

4. Developing in unison is accurate and the history books back that up. Every jurisdiction from Ontario, to Minnesota, to Florida has made contributions to the communal cultural development of the US and Canada. To decide to measure the barometer of contribution by combining 50 US jurisdictions against 10 Canadian jurisdictions, and then conclude that they didn't develop in unison because one is bigger than the other shows no logic whatsoever. Of course they developed in unison, because they existed at the same time. It is theoretically impossible for them not to have developed in unison unless one country existed in a different time space continuum. That's how absurd your assertion is. It's not even scientifically possible.

I'm not sure how you expect people to believe that 30 million people just sat motionless in a vegetated state for 250 years. People aren't rocks, they create things. The 50 states to our south did not live in a bubble for the last 3 centuries either. They absorbed the world around them. Human nature?

Zero presence? Check answer #3 and then talk to academics who actually study these things rather than regurgitating some passing observation. Football. That alone is hardly zero presence. It's a Canadian input regardless of whether a US organization has become more successful at it or not. An input is an input is an input. Zero presence in their market? I realize you don't see this as a Canadian input because all you see is $ values. You judge based on what is bigger, not on who contributed what. Based on bigger won't sway any academic, I'll assure you. They'll flatly tell you that it has no bearing on historical fact, and they will be right.

5. Laval is a product of the time it developed. Montreal doesn't have as much modern Canadian retail for the same reason as downtown Halifax doesn't.

6. Exactly. You should know better than to argue that Montreal is unique in its rejection of modern Canadian retailing. It's simply old areas protecting the character of their streetscapes.

7. Who is making stories that speak to Canadian culture doesn't matter. It's as preposterous as arguing that Canada would become 'Europe light' and just a sponge for European culture if most NHL players in 30 years come from Europe. Hockey is culturally relevant to Canadians and so are television shows. It doesn't matter the nationality of the person producing it for us as long as it speaks to our culture, and we see ourselves in that which is portrayed.

8. Irony darling!!!! I was explaining to you how daft your argument is. Canadians may have introduced those sports to Americans, but it's a stretch to say that it amounts to Canadian cultural domination of the USA. That, however, is precisely the argument you've attempted to make throughout. No, I'm not high! I'll let that insult slide. The irony and point just wasn't one you grasped. I'll write much longer explanations parceled in far tinier concepts, if you'd prefer.

9. Who said anything about KENT being a blue print for WalMart? Not me. Read what is being said to you, not what you think is being said to you. If french fries are Belgian, but Americans make it popular, does that make it an American import into Belgium? No, it doesn't. Once again, the subtlety escaped you. Things aren't as elementary as you perceive them to be. That one wasn't a hard one though. Why are you basing things on who has the bigger company? That's economic domination. It has LITTLE to do with cultural independence. It's only cultural domination if it's a FOREIGN culture. You can't be culturally dominated by your own culture even if the person at the helm is a foreigner; Wal Mart? That's like me becoming the biggest purveyor of sushi in Japan, and then some guy in Kyoto saying that I'm imposing Canadian culture on the Japanese because I'm a Canadian national.

It bears repeating. This isn't a hard one. We can't get to the next stage in the argument unless you get this one. Oh, but I forgot, in your mind big box is American because Wal Mart is bigger than KENT. Size is the determining factor. Surely, you see how little sense that makes?

10. Yes, downtown Toronto IS resisting modern Canadian ideas about retail. There is only one major mall downtown, the Eaton Centre. I believe Montreal has at least 2. The downtowns of both Montreal and Toronto have done a great job preserving older Canadian ideas about urbanism and retail. It's the newer parts of both Montreal and Toronto where modern Canadian ideas about these things have infiltrated: power centres and malls.

That other byproduct of the modern capitalist Western world, marketing, is finding a home at Dundas Square though. And about bloody time! It's a fitting tribute to Canadian capitalism and commercial success.

Not sure what that has to do with the US, but I'm sure you'll make some non-sensical connection between the two that requires no logic. Your argument is New York has a version too, right? And so you'd argue that it must be a US import. Couldn't possibly be that Toronto is simply growing into a big city? London? Hong Kong? Tokyo? I know exactly what all your rebuttals are. I've heard them a thousand times by other people. They're just not properly fleshed out theories whether you are willing to accept that or not.

11. Don Mills. Who said I'm proud of Don Mills? Don Mills was an experiment that people clamoured for. Just because suburbia is to be seen from Newfoundland to California doesn't make it Canadian. It was simply a solution that was deemed appealing to US and Canadian society the last 50 years. Whether it is good or bad is neither here nor there. The point is, our countries did develop at the same time in history, on the same continent.

Canada is NOT 'US light' for liking a show made by a US national. The US is not 'Canada' light for liking football and making it the biggest cultural phenomenon in their country. Oh, I forgot, you'd argue that football is American because the NFL is bigger than the CFL.

Sorry guys, I'd rather look at photos too, but insults to my country will never go unanswered. Besides, he asked for a response to his questions.
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Last edited by isaidso; October 21st, 2008 at 03:43 AM.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 02:37 AM   #157
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Quote:
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Yesterday: 10c, ?
Today (Sunday): 10c, sunny
Tomorrow: 13c, variable clouds
Where was that? Sudbury or Montréal? I'm confused.

Here, today (Monday) was better than what they had forecasted. It was entirely sunny, no cloud, and maximum temperature was 21 degrees. I went running in the Bois de Boulogne with only a light T-shirt on.

Tomorrow it's back to Autumn-as-usual though, with only 16 degrees and grey weather.
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Old October 21st, 2008, 04:45 AM   #158
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To re-repeat:

"ALL Canadian cities are unique and they each offer different things to different people."

-END-
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Old October 21st, 2008, 05:50 AM   #159
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I heart my hometown
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Old October 21st, 2008, 09:10 AM   #160
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All arguing aside- I love Montreal. I've been there at least 20 times.
Obviously Toronto is my favourite city because it's my home but I think Montreal is a close second.
Last time I was there was for work but I spent a great deal of time (a week I think) walking around and seeing everything.
I think walking up that the big hill and looking down at the city with my girlfriend was my favourite part. The weather was bad that day but I still had a great time that I won't forget.
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