Terraces vs. All-seaters

[Verbal Kint]

Lord Taylor stated specifically in his 1990 report on football grounds that "standing accomodation is not instrinsically unsafe".

www.standupsitdown.co.uk/

[Alle]

We have that problem in Sweden now. First they have forbidden pyrotechnics (is that the corrrect english word for bengalic fires, smoke etc?), now they want to build all seaters. First of all it aint gonna change nothing people have still used pyrotechnical products it just becomes more dangerous when they dissallowed it.

Anyhow... when u look at Italian games u get yellous, they can use their flags all the game, have whatever tifo they like and support there club throughout the game without anyone saying take that flag down i cant see. Becouse people know that if ur on the terrace thats the atmosphere there.

And now lastly, the swedish footballfederation, following the practices of UEFA and FIFA, havve set the rules that u can get fined for miscrediting UEFA, FIFA or the swedish ff. How about free speech eh? They should work for making games a better experience not destroying it. They dont even have a definition for "miscrediting" its purely arbitrary.

[2005]

I'm doing a documentary looking at the arguement of whether terracing should come back into the game, at top flight level. I've had a few conversations with Amanda Matthews, writer for StandUpSitDown, and she really likes what I've said so far. Filming should start next month and if you're interested, and live in London, then PM me and I shall give you more details.

[Calvin W]

Originally Posted by LandOfGreenGinger

Nobody has forgotten. Nobody has forgotten that deaths were caused by badly designed, poorly maintained and badly policed stadia NOT people standing while watching sport. Standing areas are not intrinsically less safe than sitting ones.

I have to disagree. With permanent seating it is more difficult for the crowd to push forward towards the front. With open terraces what stops a crowd from the back to push straight to the front. If memory serves this was a main cause of the tragedies in the past.

[johnz88]

If a stadium today is built right there is no problems with people standing, it isnt any more dangerous than people sitting. To make it better for you they caan even strengthem the front of the stands since you say people push forward. If you look for football with the best atmosphere, what football is known for and is what people love about you have to look at the places where there is standing room where the fans get more invloved. Argentina, Brazil - where fans actually dont want to renovate their stadiums with more seats, and then in europe Germany especially Dortmund.

[Benjuk]

Originally Posted by Calvin W

I have to disagree. With permanent seating it is more difficult for the crowd to push forward towards the front. With open terraces what stops a crowd from the back to push straight to the front. If memory serves this was a main cause of the tragedies in the past.

Crush barriers were installed in all stadiums in England - these barriers had to meet safety standards in terms of the load they could take, and they effectively compartmentalised areas of the terrace. When Sunderland scored, the furthest I could 'surge forward' was about five meters.

The Hillsborough crush was caused through bad design, bad ticketting and bad policing.

Like others here I see no reason why 'safe' terracing can't be re-introduced to stadiums. Safety regulations toward the end of terracing were getting almost comical - for example, my old home ground Roker Park, had a 35000 capacity in 1988, with exactly the same seating and standing areas the capacity had been reduced to less than 23000 by 1996 when Roker closed. This was purely down to the legal limit for the number of supporters standing in any given area being reduced.

[hngcm]

i dont see why you couldnt have terraces at the ends of the fields, usually where the most diehard supporters are

[BaronVonChickenpants]

Originally Posted by hngcm

i dont see why you couldnt have terraces at the ends of the fields, usually where the most diehard supporters are

i think standing area can be safe,as long as the numbers of people entering these areas are controlled....have a strict limit/capacity set and stick to it
the main reason why we haven't had a repeat of Hillsborough is the ticketing policy that accompanies all seater grounds,esoecially at the big clubs and/or the big games...gone are the days when you could just stroll up on the day to the likes of Arsenal/Man Utd/Spurs etc and pay on the door

[skaP187]

Very nice video, in germany there doesn't seem to be a problem with terracing?

[victory]

Originally Posted by Benjuk

Seems about right to me.

I love the new stadiums, but at the end of the day you can't generate an atmosphere in an all seater stadium. The rest of the stuff - ticket prices, media saturation, etc. - has changed the game a lot.

You can still generate an atmosphere in an all-seater.

It is harder, but it ain't impossible.

The Melbourne Victory fans have done it at the Telstra Dome this season, nobody from the main supporter groups sits down in thier seats mind you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K1_PYhvhME - gets good after 15ish secs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--edk5CZBBU - the north end was going nuts hours before the game started

If that can sort of atmosphere/support can be produced in an all-seater, in just a clubs 2nd year of existence, in Australia non-the-less (a country not famous for it's coordinated support), then I can't imagine all-seaters could be that detrimental to European atmospheres.

[nyrmetros]

I don't htink we ever had terraces in pro sports here in AMerika. The closest we have are bleachers....

[2020]

Originally Posted by Calvin W

I have to disagree. With permanent seating it is more difficult for the crowd to push forward towards the front. With open terraces what stops a crowd from the back to push straight to the front. If memory serves this was a main cause of the tragedies in the past.

If terracing is so unsafe then why have I been allowed to stand at every Colchester home game I have been to for the last 15 years? Is my life worth less than that of a Premiership fan?

It has nothing to do with safety, it is all about money!

[KiwiBrit]

Originally Posted by 2020

If terracing is so unsafe then why have I been allowed to stand at every Colchester home game I have been to for the last 15 years? Is my life worth less than that of a Premiership fan?

It has nothing to do with safety, it is all about money!

...you've got a point.

[Benjuk]

Oh great and all knowing stadium gurus... Can anyone advise me of the specifications for 'safe' standing areas at new stadia in Europe?

Specifically, does anyone know:
(a) the maximum 'safe' rake of a standing area?
(b) the difference in capacity between a 'safe' standing area and an identically sized seated area?

Any information most welcome.

[www.sercan.de]

In some german stadiums you have got varioseats and i think it is
1 seat : 2 persons

[Chimaera]

basically one seating row is minimum 80cm deep, 45cm for the seat and 35 for legs/passage. Steps for standing only need to be around 40cm deep. It's a simple calculation: x2

But what does "rake" mean in this context? English is not my mother tongue.

[CorliCorso]

Originally Posted by Chimaera

But what does "rake" mean in this context? English is not my mother tongue.

Angle of the stand.

The tribune at the Westfalenstadion looks pretty steep to me, for a terrace.

[Chimaera]

Originally Posted by CorliCorso

Angle of the stand.

The tribune at the Westfalenstadion looks pretty steep to me, for a terrace.

Angle, I thought so, but wasn't sure. Well, I guess if you want to have a very steep standing area, you need those supports every one or few rows...

[www.sercan.de]

the 3rd tier at Boca stadium is 45° and the 3rd tier at the endzone is terrace

[Quintana]

Calling Argentinian stadiums safe is pushing it though