The Irish Political Thread

[PB-1888]

As someone who has a West Belfast, nationalist background, I tick all the requisite boxes. Its just over the years I've come to realise that a united Ireland will probably never exist in the republican sense. But then so what? Partition arguably has worked. Certainly our border has existed longer now than many in mainland Europe, there hasn't even been breakaway regions (ie derry and armagh doing a south ossetia). But the main thing that has made me come to my conclusion is that Southeners would overwhelmingly reject the inclusion of NI in a referendum, especially now that they are all nouveaux riche. We would threaten that new new found prosperity, and when it comes to principles and money, no matter who you are the latter wins. Just look at how disasterous the Shinners are doing down South. No one down there gives a shit about four green fields anymore.

The way things are with Stormont is the way it will be. We will be bankrolled by London, and Dublin will pay in a bit to ease its conscious. But I would like to see NI stand more on its feet, hence my views on corporation tax etc.

[937delta]

History is important but we should look at where we are now and think about the future. I am sure that some folk thousands of years ago who lived in say Palestine thought that there will always be a Roman Empire. Empires come and go. In 100 years we could be part of a Chinese federation who knows. NI works at the moment despite who is in government Sinn Fein/DUP. Can you believe who is running NI. 20 years ago-if forums were around and somebody said Sinn Fein/DUP will be in a coalition someday, a poster would have responded with 'pure comedy'. But look its happened and it seems to work. Lets just hope that things keep ticking along and politicians work for NI - they are getting paid enough.

[PB-1888]

Paid too much. Bunch of wasters. Stormont has more staff than Downing Street, and slightly less than the White House. 'Running NI' I think is relative. They are far too pampered up on that hill allowing them to indulge in their tribalist bollocks, which is egged on by an overblown local media that frankly has nothing to do anymore.

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by 937delta

History is important but we should look at where we are now and think about the future. I am sure that some folk thousands of years ago who lived in say Palestine thought that there will always be a Roman Empire. Empires come and go. In 100 years we could be part of a Chinese federation who knows. NI works at the moment despite who is in government Sinn Fein/DUP. Can you believe who is running NI. 20 years ago-if forums were around and somebody said Sinn Fein/DUP will be in a coalition someday, a poster would have responded with 'pure comedy'. But look its happened and it seems to work. Lets just hope that things keep ticking along and politicians work for NI - they are getting paid enough.

If a majority in the North want a United Ireland then I dont see why any such concessions would be nessacary or desirable. Unionists would lose Island wide referenda everytime which would be needed for any concessions. That's democracy.

[937delta]

If a majority in the North want a United Ireland then I dont see why any such concessions would be nessacary or desirable. Unionists would lose Island wide referenda everytime which would be needed for any concessions. That's democracy.

Do you know anything about NI. For instance if say a majority voted for a united Ireland tomorrow 51% in favour - 49% against. Bearing in mind the VAST majority of unionists live in the east almost 700,000 out of say approx 900,000 province wide. Do you really believe that they will accept the irish state as its government. You actually believe this-you are naive. The east would be a no go area for Garda or irish officials. I would say that everybody in NI would understand this, and thats why it will not happen within your life time or mine. I say this as common sense simply because I live here and know what would happen. This is the reality of NI, do not be fooled.

[gothicform]

i have an idea... how about i rename this thread the irish unification thread or something and we then start again with another skybar?

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by gothicform

i have an idea... how about i rename this thread the irish unification thread or something and we then start again with another skybar?

+1

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by 937delta

Do you know anything about NI. For instance if say a majority voted for a united Ireland tomorrow 51% in favour - 49% against. Bearing in mind the VAST majority of unionists live in the east almost 700,000 out of say approx 900,000 province wide. Do you really believe that they will accept the irish state as its government. You actually believe this-you are naive. The east would be a no go area for Garda or irish officials. I would say that everybody in NI would understand this, and thats why it will not happen within your life time or mine. I say this as common sense simply because I live here and know what would happen. This is the reality of NI, do not be fooled.

The problem from both the British and Irish point of view is that Unionists had a chance to govern themselves before and proved incapable of doing so without discrimination - a regime that had more in common with appartheid in South Africa and a system of Gerrymandering, intimidation and thuggery that was run form the old Stormont. The fact is they could not be trusted so had power sharing forced on them. Of course, the first time, the Unionists naturally did not want to give up the old ways (Sunningdale) and started a series of Paramilitary led strikes. This lead to the famous 'spongers' speech by Harold Wilson.

So you think that if a majority of people want a United Ireland the two governments would give in to threats from a minority? Those days are long gone I think.

[Keano]

post removed

[PB-1888]

"The east would be a no go area for Garda or irish officials"

I can just imagine it now, barricades going up in Cultra, declaring "Free Holywood". That would be quite a change.

Seriously though, past behaviour suggests any topic will worm its way into the constitutional question. I've tried changing the subject already. Someone else's turn.

[cubix]

It wouldnt be the gardai or irish officials from Dublin,it would be the same people from both sides on the ground,same set up really,operations backed by Dublin with strong autonamy in Belfast and people elected there, in a few decades it could be a soft transition,with the backing of politicians and media after a period of peace & growth it could work, I dont see large proportions of the unionist community effectively bearing arms or carrying out violence on a considerable scale at such time,but if people on the ground felt otherwise then theres no way it could happen.

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by 937delta

Will in a hundred years time, or less, Belfast and Dublin merge in a single large urban area swallowing up Newry, Dundalk and Drogheda?

Who knows hope it doesn't happen as you will end up with 'brookside close' developments intermittent with mallusk/dargan style tin sheds with Boucher road style retail parks at 12 mile intervals. It would be horrifically vile.

LOL, loved that...so true.



May as well give my own personally view about this. I am not a sectarian person, I'm a 'liberal' Catholic but I'm not a nationalist. I actually would like to remain part of the United Kingdom for the forseeable future.

I take a more realistic view on this 'united Ireland' debate. The first point is that the people in the Republic, the majority at least, do not want Northern Ireland. We have a MASSIVE public sector, higher unemployment, we're seen by some as stubborn and sectarian and frankly we would cost too much.
The British I don't think care either way, some I'm sure would love us to remain in the UK others would be happy to see us leave, but the majority just don't give it a thought.

I don't think about it in my general day to day life, I tend to have more important things occupying my mind and only really think about when I see threads like this.

If I'm perfectly frank, everyone is entitled to their opinion but some people should just not bother expressing this freedom as for some all that comes out is mis-informed bollox.

Nothing in Northern Ireland or Irish history in general is clear cut and easily understood. It is certainly NOT the case that'

Catholic = Nationalist
Protestant = Unionist

This is an incredibly stupid and naive mindset to have and at the cause of many issues and problems we suffered. You do, despite what some may think, have Catholic that are unionist or don't care just as we have protestants that are nationalist or again, don't care.

I was born in 1986 and my generation, from the people I have met, my friends etc etc don't seem that worried or concerned about what will happen regarding the 'constitutional issue' in our lifetime. As I stated we have other things to do.
I personally believe it is currently in our interest both social and economic to remain within the UK while co-operating with the Republic on political and economic affairs.

When the time is right for a united Ireland, then yes it will happen. That time will not come for a VERY long time. A simple majority of 'Catholics' (wrongly assumed by several to be all nationalists), will not provide the basis for this reunification. I believe over 25% of Catholics would vote against such a move in this current time.


As for Stormont. Its not the best system, but its something and its something that instils confidence in the business community both local, national and international. It also provides a somewhat strongish base of stability. I do not like the system they have in place nor some of the ministers and members of the assembly, but there is not much I can do about that when a majority of people in Northern Ireland continue to vote along tribal lines and not for parties that can actually delivery success and progress.

I'll be honest, I'm an alliance supporter and believe they are the party that actually looks outside the Tribal Bubble and seeks to address issues that can actually make a difference.



Well that's just my 2 cents in this discussion...

[PB-1888]

The more I hear, such as Belfastuniguy's comments, the more I wonder how we end up with the fools we have in Stormont. They really are not representative of the ordinary bloke on the ground. Maybe if Alliance had someone with real charisma they'd walk all over them. Who knows. As pointed above, the assumption that all Catholics would vote for a united Ireland is completely ridiculous. I wish the more extreme elements on the so called Protestant/Unionist side would realise that, they might lighten up about cross border co-operation and see it for what it is - promoting economic growth for the Island and co-ordinating public services for border communities to improve efficiency.

[gothicform]

yes i remember reading that approximately a third of SDLP voters in the 70s and 80s were unionist catholics!... it was just who else could they vote for? lots of tactical voting going on to vote *against* the protestant parties.

i would have thought the one most obvious thing to help unite ireland would be simple... a very high speed rail link between dublin and belfast. you could do the entire line (and take in louth and lisburn) in 95 miles... express trains could run between dublin and belfast in 30 mins or there abouts! the effect would be obvious... just got to the low countries to see what this sort of thing does in action.

[hsc-online]

Irelans has the less populaiton so far and expected to choose the correct person to elect , the politiics in Irelans are as the best as they can be . Politics were quite excellent even so far they were good evergy competition in politics .

[heatonparkincakes]

Aside from "uncle" Gregory and his erm comment about Tyrone's "international" game at Croke Park, its always the case that

Its one country. Two governments.

Even if a united Ireland came about, its still would be one country and maybe a federal govt and provincial govts. Still one country. Two governments.

Centralised isnt a big thing for Ireland. More an English/French/Prussian thing.

What would have constituted a united Ireland for the 18th century Graftan parliament or Young Ireland even bore little resemblence to the ideas of Dev and certainly the reality of today.

I guess if and when it comes about, it will be what people of that time define it, not what can be found in the side notes of a 70.s Wolfe Tones record. The structure the tone, the songs the flags will be a joint effort that will wish to transcend the past.

We could do with starting to have a united Irish football (ie soccer if you are from Kerry or west belfast) and a united League.

[XenonII]

Ireland should rejoin the UK, or rather the part of Ireland that is sadly not currently part of the UK should rejoin. Seriously what is the point of them staying out any longer? It is illogical. Any justification for them needing to leave no longer exists and i'm all for a United Ireland but not at the expense of the integrity of the Union. With Ireland rejoining, we can have both, a United Ireland and a United British Isles, and surely Ireland rejoining makes much more sense than another part of the UK leaving. Things seem to be going in that direction anyway with the establishment of the British Isles Council and the two states never having such a close relationship. Separatist sentiment in Ulster is declining. We have 3 nations in the UK and about a 3/rd of the 4th, we should have all 4.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by 937delta

should Ireland rejoin the UK

You see confusion already with the 'geographic' Ireland, as part of Ireland is already in the UK.

These are the same people that get all twisted out of shape when someone calls Northern Ireland Ulster. Pot meet kettle.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by PB-1888

"Should Ireland rejoin the UK?"

20 years ago I would have said yes. The South's economy then was a joke. Even with everyone in NI doing their best at tearing the place apart it still had a much better infrastructure with much better per person GDP and standard of living, although mostly subsidised by London. Since then, the Celtic Tiger roared and Dublin has shown how successful a small independent European state with an educated English speaking population can be. Northern Ireland has now been left behind in comparison and with our recent debate over corporation tax is arguably being held back by London.

Regarding the future of the UK as it is, it is clear that a large chunk of the Scots have looked across the Irish Sea and have wondered if they too, with a similar sized English speaking population, better universities and also with strong links to the US, not too mention oil and gas reserves could emulate Dublin. The answer to that is a no brainer in my opinion.

So should Ireland rejoin the UK? No, not now. The more relevant question is; what is the future for the UK assuming the current trajectory in Scotland comes to its eventual logical conclusion. Where does that leave Northern Ireland????

There's no chance of Scotland becoming independent in the forseable future anymore than Ulster's withdrawl from the Union. It just aint gonna happen. We know of course why the Irish separatist is so keen on the idea: because it gives legitimacy to their current political situation and because they think it will make it much more easier to get their hands on Ulster. I think Ulster would rather join an independent Scotland, which it has more culturally in common with after all than join an Irish republic. Especially when you consider even those clamoring for Scottish independence still want to keep the monarchy, something most people of Ulster hold dear.

I'm sure Ireland could do just as well in the UK as it is doing out and Northern Ireland has never been in better shape or the future looked so bright for the province. Northern Ireland is certainly not the UK's poorest region either, I believe that may be Cornwall. If Northern Ireland is really doing so terrible because it is not in union with southern Ireland, then that just sounds like another reason for southern Ireland to rejoin the UK to me! Doesn't it seem rather strange that England, Scotland, Wales and Ulster are all successfully united, but part of Ireland is still out in the cold after all these decades? What makes Ireland so "special" or "unique"?

As far as I'm concerned Ireland is part of Britain and always has been (Britain is not synomnous with Great Britain otherwise Great Britain would've been called Britain) and the British Isles are far two small to be divided like it is at present, but I view that as only a temporary "solution" and reunification will come eventually. The Union is not gonna fracture any further and one day and I hope not to far in the distant future it will be restored. Like it should be.

So just because there may be no apparent economic reason to rejoin (which is debateable) is no reason not to rejoin. The people should not be divided period.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by odlum833

*can open, worms everywhere*



I dont see any reason why things should change. The relationship between Britain and Ireland is strong. Of course being independent means taking on alot of responsibility - sometimes times will be good, other times bad. The South has always shouldered the consequences of its decisions economically up until the 90's when things were pretty dire. Since the early 90's up till recently its been full steam ahead. There are challenges today of course as we all know. Ireland has remarkably similar problems to the UK and Spain right now but hopefully we will all get through it intact.

Well I do. To right a wrong from the past and to correct an injustice. Ireland should be playing its full role at Westminster alongside its fellow nations in the Union. We are stronger together than apart. The Irish never wanted independence. They wanted home rule. Well they can have that now. They can have a parliament in Dublin representing the whole of the island that concerns itself with domestic matters and they can send MPs to the Westminster parliament, best of both worlds and all for the giving up of a little independence that they never really wanted to begin with. They would become a major player on the world stage and have real input into the decisions made by the Westminster parliament. It is a win win situation for all. The UK has even become a more Catholic country (thanks to Polish immigration) and almost all discrimination against Catholics has long been abolished.