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Old October 12th, 2008, 02:44 PM   #81
indiekid
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I think a better question would be "Why would Ireland want to rejoin Britain?"
Its doing quite well on its own, so what would the union have to offer?
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Old October 12th, 2008, 03:54 PM   #82
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Xenon, if you dont see any reason why Ireland would not want to rejoin the UK, or why it wanted independence in the first place then you school system must be teaching a pretty corrupted form of history. Ireland was massively crippled by english intervention, it went from the island of saints and scholars to the backwater of emmigration and famine. Our population peaked at 8 million at one point to put that into perspective for you, it is now 6 million (4 in the republic) centuries later. Not to mention the monstrous acts of individuals such as cromwell... someone the queen herself expressed regret at sending to Ireland. Add to this the almost total decimation of Irish culture and language. Ireland was by no means perfect, with warring tribes, etc, but was far better off. (What state it would be in now if history were different is anyones guess.)

Please know that im not some crazy nationalist, and do not hate english people or any of that crap, I like Irelands close relationship with the UK, and I realise that no one alive in england today was responsible for this, or would wish it to happen. I just do not think it is wise to ignore history.

As for your posts, they are interesting. I dont see any economic benefit for Ireland in joining the UK, and it would only serve to minimalise our influence over our own affairs, as it is not exactly a federal system. The independence we have now is the natural state of things. Ireland was not created in the UK, as you last post seems to suggest.

I would be more than happy to be united with England, but through a highly federalised and liberal European Union, that respects the culture of its individual states.

"United through diversity"
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Old October 12th, 2008, 05:40 PM   #83
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I suspect Xenon is being a bit of a polemic, just to stir things up. But I'll answer a few points nonetheless.

"Seriously what is the point of them staying out any longer? It is illogical. Any justification for them needing to leave no longer exists.."

There would have been support for your argument 30 years ago when the ROI was an economic basket case. Clearly it is not now. Please explain the advantages of the ROI rejoining the union. I cannot think of any. (Please note, I believe there are currently no advantages to NI leaving the union, in our present form Dublin can't afford it).

"Things seem to be going in that direction anyway with the establishment of the British Isles Council"

The union has never been in a weaker state. Devolution was meant to counteract rising nationalist sentiment (in Scotland). It is on the increase.

"There's no chance of Scotland becoming independent in the forseable future anymore than Ulster's withdrawl from the Union. It just aint gonna happen."

I was commenting on the trajectory of Scottish opinion. there are more nationalist, SNP voting Scots than there were 5 years ago, and more again 5 years before that for example. I have already stated why that is. Saying something is never going to happen is being naive.

"I think Ulster would rather join an independent Scotland, which it has more culturally in common with after all than join an Irish republic.."

You may have a point there, but are specifically referring to Northern Irish Protestants, although do remember that the United Irishmen were founded by Presbyterians.

"I'm sure Ireland could do just as well in the UK"

How could it? Its success is based on low corporation tax, which as we've seen in NI, Westminster would immediately want to harmonise.

"Northern Ireland has never been in better shape or the future looked so bright for the province.."

Since its conception in 1921, you are probably right, but then it couldn't have gotten much worse. It still has a massive reliance on the public sector and an ongoing brain drain. Don't pop open the champagne just yet. Unfortunately Belfast is a shadow of its former 19th century self, when it was the largest, most industrialised city on Ireland and the Shanghai of the British Empire.

"The Union is not gonna fracture any further and one day and I hope not to far in the distant future it will be restored"

I think the best you can hope for is for the ROI to join the Commonwealth.

"So just because there may be no apparent economic reason to rejoin (which is debateable) is no reason not to rejoin. The people should not be divided period."

There is no economic reason for the ROI to rejoin. That is not debatable. The warming of relationships between the UK and the ROI indicate to me that good fences make good neighbours.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 11:14 PM   #84
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There is very little chance of Ireland ever joining the Commonwealth never mind anything else.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:11 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indiekid View Post
I think a better question would be "Why would Ireland want to rejoin Britain?"
Its doing quite well on its own, so what would the union have to offer?
I think a better question would be why shouldn't Ireland be part of the UK like the rest of Britain? Ireland is part of Britain just not part of the United Kingdom and then only 26 out of 32 counties. Let's start calling it Southern Ireleand not Ireland, seeing as we are practically forced to call Ulster Northern Ireland. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Why should ANY part of Britain not be in the United Kingdom? What's the point of a nation spanning two separate sovereign states? What's the point in them staying out of the UK any longer? What's stopping their return? These are the hard questions that need to be asked and so far I have not heard a decent excuse for their continued exclusion from the Union.

It's about time the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands were integrated into the UK as well. Geez can you imagine if the Channel Islands were French they would be "Crown Dependencies" (or the equivalent for a republic). It's laughable and while we are on the subject of the Channel Islands, it's about time the UK challenged French occupation of Chausey (most southerly of the Channel Islands). What's the point of the Channel Islands being ours if France is going to be allowed to keep squatting in one of them, violating our sovereignty and territorial integrity? They are ours 100% not 98.76542%. Chausey belongs to Britain and is under French occupation and was claimed by the UK until the 1950s, while it's time to renew our claim to our lost lands. There should be no such thing as "Crown Dependencies", they should be part of the UK, like any other islands in the British Isles. I don't see why the Isle of Man isn't a county of the UK like the Isle of Wight or the Isle of Anglesey either. Yes it has its own unique identity, but so do Ulster, England, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall, so that's no excuse to stay out of the Union. It's a ludicrous situation one finds one self in at the moment.

The fact Ireland is doing OK outside the UK is besides the point. Our country should be united, the people should not be divided and the land should not be partitioned.

Last edited by XenonII; October 14th, 2008 at 12:29 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:20 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XenonII View Post
I think a better question would be why shouldn't Ireland be part of the UK like the rest of Britain? Ireland is part of Britain just not part of the United Kingdom and then only 26 out of 32 counties. Let's start calling it Southern Irleand not Ireland. Why should ANY part of Britain not be in the United Kingdom? What's the point of a nation spanning two separate sovereign states? What's the point in them staying out of the UK any longer? What's stopping their return? These are the hard questions that need to be asked and so far I have not heard a decent excuse for their continued exclusion from the Union.

It's about time the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands were integrated into the UK as well. Geez can you imagine if the Channel Islands were French they would be "Crown Dependencies" (or the equivalent for a republic). It's laughable. They should be part of the UK, like any other islands surrounding Britain. Don't see why Isle of Man isn't a county of the UK like the Isle of Wight or the Isle of Anglesey either. It's ludicrous.

You should be a comedian

Ireland is a sovereign Republic. Should Spain merge with France?
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:24 AM   #87
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Sorry Xenon, but you don't have much of an argument. Ireland isn't British, nor has it expressed the desire to be. They are thriving independently, rejoining would be a shot to the foot. Maybe you need to focus less on geography and start looking at the bigger picture.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:26 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indiekid View Post
Sorry Xenon, but you don't have much of an argument. Ireland isn't British, nor has it expressed the desire to be. They are thriving independently, rejoining would be a shot to the foot. Maybe you need to focus less on geography and start looking at the bigger picture.

His geography is skewed anyway - since when was any of Ireland part of Britain?
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:28 AM   #89
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Point taken

I think he just doesn't like Britain controlling one part of the island, instead of all of it
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:34 AM   #90
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Do you propose calling Scotland "Northern Britain" and England "Southern Britain" as originally envisaged in the 1707 Act of Union?
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:37 AM   #91
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Most people just call it England really
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:40 AM   #92
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Yes of course. Just a side point, as a Scot I'm sure you get really annoyed the way the Beeb portrays GB on the weather map with Scotland disproportionately smaller than England, even though they are roughly the same size.

Edit: In terms of length, not area

Last edited by PB-1888; October 14th, 2008 at 12:45 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:44 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
There is very little chance of Ireland ever joining the Commonwealth never mind anything else.
Very little chance at the moment granted, but saying something is never going to happen is being naive. Southern Ireland should rejoin the Commonwealth by becoming part of the United Kingdom. It should not rejoin separately, so I don't worry about them not rejoining while they retain complete independence. I don't want anything that solidifies their independence or gives further legitimacy to it.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:45 AM   #94
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Whats more annoying is when the weatherman goes: " Its going to be a nice day for us all! Well it'll be shit in Scotland..but look its sunny in the south!!"

I'm just exagerating of course
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:47 AM   #95
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Xenon all you keep saying is that it should, but you've never actually answered why it would want to.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:48 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
You should be a comedian
That wouldn't be the first time someone has told me that.

Quote:
Ireland is a sovereign Republic. Should Spain merge with France?
Southern Ireland is a sovereign republic. It is not a nation though. Was Spain ever part of France? Spain and France are clearly two separate nations and while Ireland (as a whole) is a nation, it also forms part of a greater nation - Britain - just like England, Scotland and Wales. You can't say the same for Spain or France. That's the unique(?) situation we have in the British Isles, a nation of nations. Southern Ireland was and should be part of the UK and will be again one day, I'm not saying it is gonna happen over night but as sure as night follows day it will happen and I believe when that day finally comes, it will one of the most glorious in all of the nations proud history, the restoration of our territorial integrity and the reunification of of the British people, finally together again as one as God intended.

Last edited by XenonII; October 14th, 2008 at 01:40 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:52 AM   #97
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Also, they way they don't include the South (of Ireland). Always gives me the impression its perpetually sunny down there and NI gets all the rain
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Old October 14th, 2008, 12:55 AM   #98
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"That wouldn't be the first time someone has told me that."

Hmmmmmm...........
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Old October 14th, 2008, 01:01 AM   #99
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Also, they way they don't include the South (of Ireland). Always gives me the impression its perpetually sunny down there and NI gets all the rain
Who doesn't? Weather forecasters on British TV? I watch BBC World News occasionally and sometimes Ireland is mentioned. Heck, I think i've even heard them say Southern Ireland on one or two occasions. But this is something I was only just thinking of yesterday. We need the weather forecasters to include the 26 counties in national weather forecasts as if they were still part of the UK. Show partition the contempt it deserves and refuse to recognise its legitimacy. Southern Ireland gets British TV I believe so it makes sense for it to be included in UK weather broadcasts anyway.
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Old October 14th, 2008, 01:03 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
His geography is skewed anyway - since when was any of Ireland part of Britain?
I get the feeling its more than just his geography
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