The Irish Political Thread

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by indiekid

Sorry Xenon, but you don't have much of an argument. Ireland isn't British, nor has it expressed the desire to be. They are thriving independently, rejoining would be a shot to the foot. Maybe you need to focus less on geography and start looking at the bigger picture.

I don't follow a revisionist opinion on what is and isn't British. British is originating from the British Isles. Ireland has always been and always considered to be British. The British form 4 main tribes, the English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh. You can divide those tribes into two separate sovereign states, but the Irish are still British. Most of the Irish don't have British nationality in law that's true, because 26 counties of Ireland are currently a separate sovereign state, but that doesn't make Ireland not British. The Irish are British regardless of their legal nationality, they are still Irish of course and being both does not conflict with or diminish the other. The Irish nation is part of the larger British nation, just like England, Scotland and Wales, but unlike England, Scotland and Wales not currently part of the UK. The Irish should be entitled to British citizenship just like those In Ulster are entitled to Irish citizenship for the Irish are not foreigners, they are our fellow brothers and sisters, they form an essential component of the British people and they should be respected as such and not denied their rights.

I DO look at the bigger picture! Those wanting a "United Ireland" only look at the partition of the island of Ireland and convienently ignore the partition of the British Isles into two separate states. They ignore what caused the partition to begin with, the 26 counties being turfed out of the Union, and they ignore the logical solution to end this problem, those 26 counties welcome and long overdue return. Ulster has never been part of the Irish Republic but the Irish Republic was part of the UK! Those wanting a "United Ireland" want the people of the British Isles LESS united than before, while I want to end ALL division of the people within the British Isles! I'm consistent and don't ignore the larger issue. We need to compromise to achieve our goals and Ulster leaving the United Kingdom to hook up with the Irish Republic is no compromise from the Irish separatists, it just makes a bad situation even worse! We need less division between the people, not more like the Irish separatist seeks.

[indiekid]

Where is Lostboy when you need him

Btw you've still not anwsered why Ireland would want to rejoin.

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by XenonII

Ireland has always been and always considered to be British. .

Erm.... no, they are not. That is just reality. That is a pretty impressive bubble you are living in that is for sure.

[saoró...]

You might find this useful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termino..._British_Isles

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by odlum833

His geography is skewed anyway - since when was any of Ireland part of Britain?

Britain is the British nation. Britain consists of 4 nations: England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Great Britain is an island. Great Britain is not Britain, just the largest and most populous island within Britain. Britain can also be used instead of British Isles. All of Ireland is part of Britain but not all of Ireland is currently part of the UK. The United Kingdom is not a nation and neither is the Irish Republic, they are sovereign states. The UK contains 3 and a bit nations, the other part of the 4th being in the Irish Republic. When the Irish Republic rejoins the UK, which is inevitable in the long term, then the UK will be a nation once more.

[odlum833]

Can I have some of what your smoking?....please

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by indiekid

Point taken

I think he just doesn't like Britain controlling one part of the island, instead of all of it

I believe the United Kingdom should consist of the whole of the British Isles, because I believe the British nation consists of the whole of the British Isles and that nations should be united and not divided. I also believe that there should be a home rule parliament in Dublin representing the whole of the island of Ireland for local domestic matters. Ireland should have a very large measure of self government, but should not be separate from the rest of the country, out in the cold like at present. We need a balance. I don't think these are unreasonable or inachievable beliefs either.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by PB-1888

Do you propose calling Scotland "Northern Britain" and England "Southern Britain" as originally envisaged in the 1707 Act of Union?

No because Northern Ireland is also part of northern Britain and Southern Ireland is also part of southern Britain (the far south of Ireland at least). Scotland would be "North East Britain" but I don't see any point in such a designation, Scotland is fine.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by indiekid

Most people just call it England really

The Welsh will love that.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by PB-1888

Yes of course. Just a side point, as a Scot I'm sure you get really annoyed the way the Beeb portrays GB on the weather map with Scotland disproportionately smaller than England, even though they are roughly the same size.

Edit: In terms of length, not area

Can't say i've noticed but what's the deal with Iceland being shown almost as large as GB?

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by indiekid

Xenon all you keep saying is that it should, but you've never actually answered why it would want to.

I don't propose forcing them back into the Union. It will be up for the Irish to decide when they are ready. We can wait but we will keep discussing it and in the meantime, the issue needs to be brought to the forefront of the national concenscious. One reason why they may want to would be it would end the partition of the island of Ireland and the Irish nation and they would have far more local autonomy under devolution than they ever had under the UK's previous system of administration of direct rule. The idea may become more popular amongst the "rebellious south" when they realise that Ulster is British and there will be no surrender! They would also have a real input into the running of the 2nd most powerful nation on Earth with the 2nd highest defence spending in the world (despite throwing away most of its Empire as if it was bad rubbish) and with a permanent seat on the UN Secuirty Council and one of the richest nations on God's green earth. Those are all splendid reasons by my reckoning.

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by XenonII

They would also have a real input into the running of the 2nd most powerful nation on Earth

Yes, we would not mind running China for them - not gonna happen though

[belfastuniguy]

I'm not even going to bother and respond to you XenonII.

The sheer amount of utter and total bullshit you have spewed would take too much of my time to respond to properly and its really not worth my effort.

Though I do think you need a reality check to be honest.

Can't say i've noticed but what's the deal with Iceland being shown almost as large as GB?

Seriously doubt its shown as large as GB. Iceland however isn't exactly a tiny place, its about half the size of GB at about 40,000 sq miles. Its bigger than the entire island of Ireland....maybe you need to become more geography aware.

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by odlum833

Yes, we would not mind running China for them - not gonna happen though

I was talking about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland of course (UK), not the People's Republic of China (PRC). How many nations has Red China invaded in recent times (excluding the invasion of British Hong Kong)? The current UK of course is not a nation, but with the return of the 26 lost counties, it would be. Why should Unionists settle for a meare 6 counties of the island of Ireland when Irish separatists are not content with 26?! Unionism must evolve, Unionism must seek to recover the lost counties and secure Ireland's - ALL of Ireland - place within the Union. Just as Hong Kong went back to China, Southern Ireland should come back to Britain! Those in Ulster shouldn't fear its return either, for it can be run similar to how Scotland is now and will be the best of both worlds - secure Ulster's place within the Union while uniting Ireland (and Britain)!

[XenonII]

Originally Posted by odlum833

Can I have some of what your smoking?....please

My body is a temple to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[937delta]

Funny how Irish republicans like to seperate out Britian into 3 seperate nations, even though they are on a 'small' island, yet will never accept that there are 2 countries on the Island of Ireland.

[Boba Fett22]

Originally Posted by Onoudidnt

i wouldnt say that having the widest motorway or tallest building makes a city great.

True, but I think PB is sorta joking.

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by 937delta

yet will never accept that there are 2 countries on the Island of Ireland.

I would not term Northern Ireland a 'country' - '6 counties', yes. The 'Northeast', yes. The 'North', possibly. Never heard it described as a 'country'.




I have rarely come across as much nonsense anywhere else on the internet as what is in the last two pages of this thread.

[belfastuniguy]

Northern Ireland is a constituent country. Just as Wales, England and Scotland are also constituent countries of the United Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_country

I would see Northern Ireland as a country, I HATE the term province sounds rather deeming in my opinion.


So yes you could very well argue that the island of Ireland contains the countries of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

[PB-1888]

Xenon puts forward an argument, that to be honest I've never heard anyone else express. He does seem consistent, even if a bit bonkers. A word of advice - if you're aspiration is to become reality you will need to persuade all of us doubters, and that will require answering the obvious questions put forward to you, which I dont think you can.

I hate 'province' too, makes me think of hicksvilles and hillbillies.

One the one hand NI and RoI can both be described as separate countries, in that they have internationally recognised borders and each send a team to the World Cup (or at least try to). However my passport says Ireland, and is meant to include the 'whole'. A British passport will say the UK of GB and NI. Therefore you could argue the RoI isn't a country because no passport exists for the citizens of the 26 counties not subject to the British Crown. NI is included within the British passport, and the Irish passport refers to the island. All very confusing.