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Old October 14th, 2008, 11:03 PM   #121
937delta
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I think to say that Northern Ireland is not a separate state from the Republic is madness and you should make an appointment with your GP. The first problem republicans have is that they cannot admit to this fact, they may not like it, but it is a fact. When you cross the border the currency, the signs, culture, infrastructure, economy, accent, government, changes they are two separate countries get over it. The only time that Ireland was one country administered from one central government was when the whole island was under British Rule. The republicians ironically split Ireland.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 02:33 AM   #122
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The name 'Ireland' in terms of passports, politics, economics etc etc refers to the separate independent state of the Republic of Ireland.

The Irish Passport is available to citizens that reside in Northern Ireland under the terms agreed for the Good Friday Agreement. It was meant to make sure those that did not feel they should be subject to British Rule or whatever could have an Irish identity that was recognised.

That's all that is, a simple amendment to the Irish constitution that allows anyone born in Northern Ireland may have an Irish passport.

Geographically the name Ireland refers to the island.


Its really not that complicated people.



As for the 'not different countries' bull. Really?? Not different. So who in what currency is your salary/wage paid, how much are you taxed, what's your childs school curriculum, the university application process including secondary school examinations.

How collects your rubbish, maintains your roads, hospitals, schools and public infrastructure.

Of course they are different countries. People would be aware of this if some did not reside inside a bubble of false logic.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 09:43 AM   #123
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The 6 counties actually accept the Euro in most outlets and shops especially near the border. The border is not visible in reality. The is no 'Wlecome to...' signs. Nothing visible accept the change in road signs. Most tourists will tell you they dont know where the border is suppose to be. It is up to the individual how they view the North. I wont ignore the amount of Irish people living in the North who want to be part of the Republic. I see it as Irish - full stop. Others see it differently. Most here, in reality, dont care either way.

The North is not a normal society and that should be first and foremost remembered.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 10:20 AM   #124
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Northerners could always get an Irish passport, certainly I had one before the Good Friday Agreement. This was due to I think the article (forget which one) in the Irish Constitution which claimed ownership of the 6 counties, but was subsequently amended as part of the GFA, although the dual citizenship thing persisted. I was trying to be a bit of devils advocate in that really the 26 counties dont have a separate identity whereas arguably the north eastern 6 do.

I take issue with the North not being a 'normal society' The people I work and socialise with all seem fairly normal to me. So we have two sets of people that on the whole are suspicious of each other. But then so does Belgium. The US is becoming increasingly polarised into a secular and religious divide. India has its caste system. I could go on. The issue is do we have a functioning society? Its getting there.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 10:41 AM   #125
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The border is not visible in reality. The is no 'Wlecome to...' signs. Nothing visible accept the change in road signs

Most (if not all) of the border crossing points occur within nationalist areas, and the state recognises this, it would be too sensitive to stict up welcome to NI. I don't think the signs would last too long. What they should do is redraw the border and let go to Bogside, Strabane, Newry, Bandit country etc. I don't think those people would complain, pay a large sum to any unionists to move out into a smaller NI. Everybody happy!!!!!!
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Old October 15th, 2008, 02:11 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odlum833 View Post
The 6 counties actually accept the Euro in most outlets and shops especially near the border. The border is not visible in reality. The is no 'Wlecome to...' signs. Nothing visible accept the change in road signs. Most tourists will tell you they dont know where the border is suppose to be. It is up to the individual how they view the North. I wont ignore the amount of Irish people living in the North who want to be part of the Republic. I see it as Irish - full stop. Others see it differently. Most here, in reality, dont care either way.

The North is not a normal society and that should be first and foremost remembered.
How old are you?....

Because you come out with stuff a 12 yr old should be embarrassed at.

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Old October 15th, 2008, 03:34 PM   #127
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How old are you?....

Because you come out with stuff a 12 yr old should be embarrassed at.

Really? How is that? Bare in mind this thread relates to Irish politics before you decide to respond. No one is forcing you to look in this section if it annoys you this much.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 05:43 PM   #128
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The 6 counties actually accept the Euro in most outlets and shops especially near the border. The border is not visible in reality. The is no 'Wlecome to...' signs. Nothing visible accept the change in road signs. Most tourists will tell you they dont know where the border is suppose to be. It is up to the individual how they view the North. I wont ignore the amount of Irish people living in the North who want to be part of the Republic. I see it as Irish - full stop. Others see it differently. Most here, in reality, dont care either way.

The North is not a normal society and that should be first and foremost remembered.
The 'North' is not normal society. Please do elaborate becuase unless I'm missing something as a resident of Northern Ireland I see it as a rather normal place. Yes the flag waving sectarian bigots are not normal but they are also not the majority. Indeed the majority of people in Northern Ireland have perfectly normal lives, go to work or school. Go shopping, to the cinema and entertain. In addition to a plethora of other 'normal things.
Is this and example of a 'southerner-up-their-own-arse' attitude ?? It certainly seems so.



I also DID NOT say shops in Northern Ireland do not accept Euro. I said people working in Northern Ireland or those sponging off the state do not have their money paid to them as Euro....there is a difference. Clearly you were not able to distinguish that.

The North (which is a term I also dislike as it implies with are part of the Republic of Ireland, but the Northern section...which is pure bullshit). Is not just something people make up in their heads. Yes the border is not enforced or marked, but I don't see a problem with this, its rather refreshing to have an international border that is not heavily policed and monitored.

Though of course criminals exploit this in addition to southern refuse companies that pile across this non-existent border and dump all their toxic crap in Northern Ireland. Maybe we should enforce the border more heavily, maybe then people like you would not come out with such crap like.
Quote:
I see it as Irish - full stop. Others see it differently. Most here, in reality, dont care either way.

Northern Ireland does not a population that see themselves as Irish, but they are not in the majority. If a majority of Irish people living in the border have such little regard and respect for Northern Ireland then you can all take yourselves off. Though knowing a good many people from Ireland, I know they don't share you tainted views.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 05:58 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by belfastuniguy View Post

Northern Ireland does not a population that see themselves as Irish, but they are not in the majority. If a majority of Irish people living in the border have such little regard and respect for Northern Ireland then you can all take yourselves off. Though knowing a good many people from Ireland, I know they don't share you tainted views.

Irish people will not be going anywhere in the North - you think the brand of unionist bigotry and thuggery and gerrymandering of the 60's and 70's is ever returning? That period has tainted Unionist leaders forever - you are not even trusted to have a normal functioning parliment - do you know why that is? Why unionists are forced to powershare? 'Irish people' will stay exactly where they are. I would not recommend the 'indigenous population' (yeah the ones that dont act the prick) leave their own land any more then I would recommend that Unionists get the boat to Britain and dont look back.

Anyone from a normal functioning democratic state notices very quickly the things you seem to regard as 'normal' - the painted curbstones - the 'peacewalls' - the flags - the bunting - the emphasis on religion - the division of communities, towns and cities through religion - sectarianism - bigotry -------- this is not normal im afraid. If you think it is you need to get out more!

Im not saying things have not changed - they are changing but, IMO, too slowly.

Last edited by odlum833; October 15th, 2008 at 06:06 PM.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 06:07 PM   #130
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I can remember a time when the Republic of Ireland recognised the border. It was from about the late 80's-around 1995, for whatever reason it was cheaper for republicans from south of the border to shop in Belfast and they came up in their bus loads. So the Republic government took it upon themselves to restrict how much you could spend north of the border to say £75 pounds or something. Cars/buses were stopped at the border and checked. The european court decided that it was illegal, as you could trade freely between countries and told the Irish government to stop. Did they - no they kept this going for years after. I wonder as the Irish economy is in a spot of bother now will they go back to their old ways. The UK on the other hand as always allowed its citizens to go down south and buy what one wants and come back over the border. (Apart from guns and bombs)
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Old October 15th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #131
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The Republic is an open free market economy - you can do what you want when you want with your own money. Plenty of Northerners are happy to avail of the cheap petrol on this side of the border.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 06:54 PM   #132
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The Republic is an open free market economy - you can do what you want when you want with your own money. Plenty of Northerners are happy to avail of the cheap petrol on this side of the border.
Just as Southerner's are happy to fill Northern Ireland's shopping centres for lower taxed clothes, food, furniture and electrical items.


Lets not get all petty shall we, its rather childish.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 07:01 PM   #133
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Just as Southerner's are happy to fill Northern Ireland's shopping centres for lower taxed clothes, food, furniture and electrical items.


Lets not get all petty shall we, its rather childish.


'Lower taxed'? Your more taxed then we are - your goods are generally cheaper because of currency discrepancy and wage differential. That is fine - you have to make money where you can. May aswell take advantage.

And yes I dont want to get into petty arguments either and I am quite content to draw a line. Assuming others are.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 07:42 PM   #134
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"And yes I dont want to get into petty arguments either and I am quite content to draw a line. Assuming others are."

Ah yes, on the surface but we all actually enjoy throwing a bit of mud at each other from time to time (even though you might not admit it). I'm surprised 'Mexicans' hasn't come up yet.

This is more for the purpose of an outside who has never been to Northern Ireland.

NI is a functioning, relatively prosperous society. Yes there are walls in North/West Belfast to separate the communities, but these are (slowly) coming down, quite in contrast to other Western societies where gated communties are springing up due to the ever increasing disparities in wealth. Any sized industrial western city has its ghettos and dodgy neighbourhoods, which are generally demarctaed along social class and racial lines. Belfast too has unsavourory areas, divided by class and religion as opposed to race. In addition you might see a painted kerbstone or a tattered flag from a lamp post, big deal. When you compare NI to other post conflict societies, I think you'll find we're doing quite well.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 07:55 PM   #135
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'Lower taxed'? Your more taxed then we are - your goods are generally cheaper because of currency discrepancy and wage differential. That is fine - you have to make money where you can. May aswell take advantage.
Actually...if you knew anything. You would be aware that VAT is higher in the Irish Republic. So not it is not solely based on currently exchange fluctuations.

For reference: Irish VAT: 21%
UK VAT: 17.5%
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Old October 15th, 2008, 08:01 PM   #136
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Actually...if you knew anything. You would be aware that VAT is higher in the Irish Republic. So not it is not solely based on currently exchange fluctuations.

For reference: Irish VAT: 21%
UK VAT: 17.5%
Even accounting for VAT it IS currency descrepancy. It is also the fact wages are higher in the South therefore costs are higher.






Nuff said....tbh. The lowest corporate taxes too....thats good.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 08:07 PM   #137
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I'm not talking about income tax...you don't pay income tax on goods you idiot.

HENCE I was talking about VAT which is a set tax rate charged on all goods classified as taxable.
No matter how much or little your salary you all pay the same VAT rates.


If you going to try and argue about taxation and economics, best you not do that with an economist.

Both the United Kingdom and Ireland have the same basic tax rate of 20% with the UK having a higher tax band of 40% and Ireland 41%.

Best you use more up to date economic data in future.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 08:12 PM   #138
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I'm not talking about income tax...you don't pay income tax on good you idiot.

HENCE I was talking about VAT which is a set tax rate charged on all goods classified as taxable.
No matter how much or little your salary you all pay the same VAT rates.


If you going to try and argue about taxation and economics, best you not do that with an economist.

Both the United Kingdom and Ireland have the same basic tax rate of 20% with the UK having a higher tax band of 40% and Ireland 41%.

Best you use more up to date economic data in future.
What are you doing calling people idiots on the forum? It is never nessacary to give out personal insults - I believe that sort of thing is shunned upon and rightly so.

The economic data I use for today would show very little if any difference. What is the Corporate tax rate in the United Kingdom? - please remind me. Does not really effect a public service driven economy like yours I suppose

What percentage of your (NI) economic output is from the private sector? You will find the question is relevant to this discussion.

Last edited by odlum833; October 15th, 2008 at 08:27 PM.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 08:33 PM   #139
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What are you doing calling people idiots on this forum? - I believe that sort of thing is shunned upon.

The economic data I use for today would show very little if any difference. What is the Corporate tax rate in the United Kingdom? - please remind me. Does not really effect a public service driven economy like yours I suppose

What percentage of your economic output is from the private sector? You will find the question is relevant to this discussion.
The UK corporation tax rate is classed into three catagories.

The starting rate for small business is 10% followed by 20-30% and the top rate is 30%. The rate of tax is based on the level of profit the company makes.


The reference to the public sector here is a rather poor arguement. Firstly the Northern Irish economy is now growing faster than the Republic of Ireland. It has also been sustaining a near level growth rate since 2001 to that of the Republic.
The public sector is such a large sector here given the Troubles when jobs and investment were needed and the government was the only body able and willing to make that investment.

The Public sector in Northern Ireland is still important and will be for a good many years, but the private sector has been growing with an ever increasing share of foreign investment brought to the United Kingdom.
The public sector makes up about 60% of the Northern Irish economy, it is large, but it is decreasing, again the history of Northern Ireland is to blame for this.


However I'd not be so smug Odlum, 49% of the Irish economy and 64% of all Irish jobs are dependent on the services sector which isn't exactly a great situation to be in at the minute. The vast majority are jobs with non-Irish companies and where do you think those companies will close offices and stores if they suffer in this current financial downturn. In general its their foreign operations that suffer first.
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Old October 15th, 2008, 11:13 PM   #140
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Where did this retarded debate start? My economy vs your economy is not a great game to play at the moment if yeh havnt noticed, things can change very quickly.

Discussing economic strategy, grand. Using it as pseudo-slurs, umm, wtf?
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