NIMBYism in our cities

[shooter]

Jan Gehl.......please. All he wants is an unrealistic & unworkable cyclist/pedestrian utopia, without paying any attention to how Sydney actually functions. "Oooooo I have a good ide let's tear down the Cahill expresway, bury the rail lines and Western Distributor". Who the hell is going to pay for that??? The state gov would have to sell a few kidneys to finance that one. Also, as for Clover Moore and her light rail, laneway, small bars thing.....great idea but hardly original is it?? Just a wee bit behind Melbourne in that one

[KJBrissy]

It worked in other cities that functioned in the same way did it not?

[shooter]

European cities are not laid out like Australian cities. They were 'designed' hundreds and hundreds of years ago for horse & cart or walking so they are very well suited to the suggestions of Jan Gehl. As for our massively sprawled out urban centres it does not work. Motor vehicles (mainly trucks) are the lifeblood of Australian business. If trucks cannot access city buildings it will all grind to a halt very quickly. Copule that with our shi!house PT arrangements and what can you do cycle in from Penrith of Frankston into city centres every day? Thirdly a total lack of infrastrucure (bike paths, showers, bike lockers etc) for cyclists make it a dicey proposition at best.

[KJBrissy]

So are you now saying that they some how make deliveries in European cities in a way that cannot be achieved in Australian cities?

I know in Brisbane all new and refurbished Office buildings have HEAPS of cycle provision plus showers etc.

You are also saying that we shouldn't build the infrastructure because it won't work, yet it won't work because there is no infrastructure!

[shooter]

Where did I ever say that we shouldn't build infrastructure for cyclists?? It is an important thing to do but it will not be a panacea for the planet's ills. I can't comment on brisbane but in Melbourne I have only ever seen been to one place where you can shower after riding to work and nowhere with dedicated bike storage. As such no-one I know cycles to work. Also in Sydney it is so bloody hilly that I see no people cycle to work compared with Melbourne which is at least relatively flat.

What I am saying about what not to do with reference to Jan Gehl is do demolish the multi-billion dollar freeway/tollway systems due to the fact that they are not asthetically pleasing! Where will all the cars go? Also he wanted to heavily restrict vehicle access to the CBD, again how will trucks be able to transport goods of roads are turned into ped malls??

Also try this, go to google maps look at the street layout/size of the Paris CBD (old & new) for example and then compare it to Sydney or Melbourne......what do you see in common?? Probably not alot. Comparing old-world Euro cities to what we have here is comparing apples and oranges. We need to find our own solutions rather than pay for the opinions of someone whose work applies to something very different.

[crazyknightsfan]

Why do cyclists need special parking? Are they incapable of using the offce carpark like everyone else?

If I was to cycle to work (which I won't coz it's too damn hilly and dangerous for the distance) then I would just park my bike in the car park

[shooter]

I dunno, I don't cycle to work either. I value my life to dearly, not to mention the fact I can't be assed.............

Although at my work at the very least if you wanted to park your bike in a car park you will still have to fork out a sh!tload of cash to park there which would put people off.

[KJBrissy]

Originally Posted by shooter

Where did I ever say that we shouldn't build infrastructure for cyclists?? It is an important thing to do but it will not be a panacea for the planet's ills. I can't comment on brisbane but in Melbourne I have only ever seen been to one place where you can shower after riding to work and nowhere with dedicated bike storage. As such no-one I know cycles to work. Also in Sydney it is so bloody hilly that I see no people cycle to work compared with Melbourne which is at least relatively flat.

There is not enough room to build both cycle infrastructure and keep the current road infrastructure. If you want to keep the current road infrastructure as it is you will not be able to build any cycle infrastructure that is worth of comment unless we bulldoze highrises. To me that is favouritising private vehicle infrastructure.

Originally Posted by shooter

What I am saying about what not to do with reference to Jan Gehl is do demolish the multi-billion dollar freeway/tollway systems due to the fact that they are not asthetically pleasing! Where will all the cars go? Also he wanted to heavily restrict vehicle access to the CBD, again how will trucks be able to transport goods of roads are turned into ped malls??

It has been found that every city in the world wants about 5% more roadspace than what they currently have. If you reduce roadspace, you reduce the need to use the roadspace.

In San Fransisco after a major Earthquake, 2 of the major freeways were demolished. Everyone thought the city would be brought to a standstill. By the time the authorities came up with a solution, they found that the city coped without the infrastructure. Years later they constructed a light rail line and pedestrian space.

Heavily restricting vehicles does not mean that they are unable to get through. How to tennancies on the Pitt Street mall get services, I'm assuming your telling me it's impossible?

Originally Posted by shooter

Also try this, go to google maps look at the street layout/size of the Paris CBD (old & new) for example and then compare it to Sydney or Melbourne......what do you see in common?? Probably not alot. Comparing old-world Euro cities to what we have here is comparing apples and oranges. We need to find our own solutions rather than pay for the opinions of someone whose work applies to something very different.

Try Manhattan instead then. They have 37% of the road space that is considered required to move people about effectively. They are now starting to reduce the amount of lanes on roads and turn them into pedestrian areas.



Our cities really only have major issues in the day. If other Australian cities are anything like Brisbane, most servicing and deliveries happen before 6:30am. There are no dramas then.

Originally Posted by shooter

I dunno, I don't cycle to work either. I value my life to dearly, not to mention the fact I can't be assed.............

Although at my work at the very least if you wanted to park your bike in a car park you will still have to fork out a sh!tload of cash to park there which would put people off.

Which is exactly why you need to create more human scalke spaces so that it isn't as dangerous!!

[The Collector]

Originally Posted by shooter

Where did I ever say that we shouldn't build infrastructure for cyclists?? It is an important thing to do but it will not be a panacea for the planet's ills. I can't comment on brisbane but in Melbourne I have only ever seen been to one place where you can shower after riding to work and nowhere with dedicated bike storage.

Where I work, about 20% of the workforce commute by bike and we have all the infrastructure to support it, a very large bike cage and shower facilities on every level (seven levels).

If the employer provides the infrastructure the employees will cycle.

[shooter]

KJBrissy, I can tell you I personally have never seen a delivery truck in the Pitt St Mall or the Bourke St Mall for that matter. I assume the deliver stuff out the back, which is doiable if you only close off one road but not multiple. Also some of us in the big smoke get deliveries all day not just prior to 6:30am. I can't comment on Brisbane I wouldn't know if I was standing in the middle of it but to say that you have to remove substantial road infrastructure for cyclists is bullsh!t. How many people do you think cycle to work anyway?

Also reducing roadspace is fine is the people who used to drive on those roads have an alternate means of transport. In Melbourne & Sydney PT is sh!t Try and get a seat (or standing room) on a peak hour train in either city (unless you live in Katoomba or Frankston) all those people still need to be ferried around somehow and our current PT systems are not up to the task.....perhaps San Fran has better PT than us and it could pick up two freeways worth of slack.

And Collector if your emplyer provides these facilites then great, makr use of them but you are in the minority. Where I work I see bikes chained to anything that is stuck in the ground, or they are wheeled inside making the floor filthy and no showers.

BTW what does this have to do with NIMBYs?? I think this discussion has gone way off track.

[KJBrissy]

Originally Posted by shooter

KJBrissy, I can tell you I personally have never seen a delivery truck in the Pitt St Mall or the Bourke St Mall for that matter. I assume the deliver stuff out the back, which is doiable if you only close off one road but not multiple. Also some of us in the big smoke get deliveries all day not just prior to 6:30am. I can't comment on Brisbane I wouldn't know if I was standing in the middle of it but to say that you have to remove substantial road infrastructure for cyclists is bullsh!t. How many people do you think cycle to work anyway?

Of course there are some deliveries that occur during the day, but these will still be able to occur. No one anywhere (not even Jan) has said anything about closing streets everywhere, but rather reducing the nember of lanes in the city and increasing the width of cycle and pedestrian infrastructure.

Tell me, if you have a building on each side of the road, with a footpath on each side and then a road in the middle, where do you put the cycle3 infrastructure without taking away lanes?

The amount of people that cycle to work is really irrelevant. The better the infrastructure, the higher mode share you'll get.

Originally Posted by shooter

Also reducing roadspace is fine is the people who used to drive on those roads have an alternate means of transport. In Melbourne & Sydney PT is sh!t Try and get a seat (or standing room) on a peak hour train in either city (unless you live in Katoomba or Frankston) all those people still need to be ferried around somehow and our current PT systems are not up to the task.....perhaps San Fran has better PT than us and it could pick up two freeways worth of slack.

When Brisbane lost its Riverside Expreessway for a week (140,000 cars per day) it was utter chaos...initially. By the end of the week there was a lot more order. There was minimal increase in PT availability etc, however somehow it works?

Also, you have just said that the problem is with the PT infrastructure and not the Road Infrastructure.

San Fran has worse PT than Australian cities with where that Freeway ran!

Originally Posted by shooter

BTW what does this have to do with NIMBYs?? I think this discussion has gone way off track.

You are obviosly a NIMBY with regard to Jan Gehl's ideas

[acc521]

Regarding KJ Brissy's comments about Brisbane, it's similar in Hong Kong. Walk through the CBD in the early hours of the morning during any weekday and they are a hive of activity with trucks and deliveries etc.

[LanceDriver]

Originally Posted by shooter

KJBrissy, I can tell you I personally have never seen a delivery truck in the Pitt St Mall

i just walked through there. i suggest you arrive between 8-10am and have another look.

[Fabian]

I've been there early in the morning and it resembles a carpark.

[Jimmy James]

It sounds like people (like this Gehl dude) are putting the cart before the horse, they want more PT, cycling, less cars whatever in their city but yet look at all the cities, all of them follow the same quarter acre block sprawl.

Before any improvements in public transport amenity or cycling access are feasible we really need to improve the denisty (and affordability) of established suburbs, that means more apartments, townhouses, hell even two or three storey houses on smaller blocks all things that NIMBYs hate because it curtails their view, sunlight, peace of mind whatever. But if we all wanna live in the same place then we're all gonna have to learn to live a bit closer together to make it work.

[LanceDriver]

^ pretty much

[Locke]

Anyone else think NIMBYism is irrelevant anyway? Money is what drives the world and projects, who cares about the NIMBYS when no one has finance/money to build anyway.

On the flip side, must be a great time to be a NIMBY, no one even bothers:P

[ross_the_man]

[LanceDriver]

^ what a load of shit! i think the underlying real translation is "we gotta do something to keep out those damn foreigners that invade other cities!" or at best "we like living in a sleepy big and boring town, let's keep it that way".

here's my ageism coming out, and i plead guilty, it's the fcking greys again that are causing that shit!

[ross_the_man]

Yep, they get pissed off because the place is growing. They should piss off to the south coast.