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Old September 28th, 2008, 06:16 AM   #41
DrzBrooklynChulo90
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It seems like that building can just tilt over and break in half..it doesn't look safe at all. Is it even safe enough to build a building like that?
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Old September 28th, 2008, 06:47 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrzBrooklynChulo90 View Post
It seems like that building can just tilt over and break in half..it doesn't look safe at all. Is it even safe enough to build a building like that?
It is got to be safe. But does it really fit there? is it really the way to go? it seems to extreme for me.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #43
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I love it, New York is all about contrasts!
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Old September 28th, 2008, 03:13 PM   #44
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Contrasts suck. They **** up most of today's cities. The human eye's always searching for harmony, details, ornaments, sophisticated proportions, just - beauty. It won't find these attributes in most modernist buildings.

Just ask yourself: Why are Europe's cities today generally seen as the most beautiful on earth? Because they're harmonic, not contrasty.

Just imagine there'd still be a bigger area without any post-war buildings in NYC - just classical highrises. Now that'd be awesome.

Of course some nice interspersed modern building here and there doesn't hurt.
But you also need some harmonic, historic areas that aren't interrupted by modernist experiments. This is such one. Why destroy this harmony?
There are enough places where this building could look awesome.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 03:43 PM   #45
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To be honest, I like contrasts. It makes a city more interesting. Having a modern scraper next to historical buildings looks good IMO.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 03:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbsenzaehler View Post
Contrasts suck. They **** up most of today's cities. The human eye's always searching for harmony, details, ornaments, sophisticated proportions, just - beauty. It won't find these attributes in most modernist buildings.

Just ask yourself: Why are Europe's cities today generally seen as the most beautiful on earth? Because they're harmonic, not contrasty.

Just imagine there'd still be a bigger area without any post-war buildings in NYC - just classical highrises. Now that'd be awesome.

Of course some nice interspersed modern building here and there doesn't hurt.
But you also need some harmonic, historic areas that aren't interrupted by modernist experiments. This is such one. Why destroy this harmony?
There are enough places where this building could look awesome.
Your opinion. I prefer cities with contrasts, thats why european cities are so boring. All the same in the center all the same in the outskirts. Far more interesting are cities in countries like Australia, USA or oriental cities like Singapore or Bejing. Not as "beautiful", but far more liveable, interesting and metropolitan-like.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 04:05 PM   #47
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^ You named exactly the cities nearly anybody (including me) considers as bland and boring.
What's exciting in Singapore? I can't imagine a more sterile and boring city. I've seen it 4 years ago and was bored to hell (as well as some mainland and coastal Chinese cities - I still regret the decision to visit those places).
Same case goes with most of the 'downtownized' business city centers in North American and Australian cities. In fact their city centers are dead in comparison with European ones. In most cases, at least.

Just take a city like Amsterdam. Its city center is historic, cozy, harmonic - yet vibrant, lively and exciting. Anybody who denies that didn't visit it so far.
Of course, cities of contrasts can be exciting a.s.o. - just look at Berlin, Hamburg or some parts of London. NYC offers loads of contrast as well. But you also have a considerable contingent of beautiful classic architecture on the other hand. So it's somewhat balanced.

This balance shouldn't be disarranged by projects like this.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 04:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbsenzaehler View Post
Same case goes with most of the 'downtownized' business city centers in North American and Australian cities. In fact their city centers are dead in comparison with European ones. In most cases, at least.
Sydney and Melborune city center are more lively than anything in Germany. Its full of people and shops.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 04:32 PM   #49
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Read carefully. I said 'in most cases'. I'm not gonna argue with you about that matter, 'cause I know it wouldn't lead to anything grave

I love Sydney. And yeah, it's full of people. But look where those people go to. In fact, you find them in the historic areas (the city still has lots of them), that are interrupted by few modern bloopers and some skyscrapers - the modernist business district isn't even half as lively. A lot of the city's elation result from its unique landscape and the climate, anyway.
Melbourne is another case. I didn't like it. And it wasn't anywhere near the vibrancy of Berlin for example. No way!
(And btw: Shops aren't the only criteria of a 'lively' city.. Ever heard of nightlife?)


Just tell me: Why not have a dignified historical composition of grand skyscrapers in this area?
Why does it have to be interrupted by this strange experiment? There are other untouched places where it may work. It could look great somewhere around Chelsea, SoHo or White Hall, for instance.

Luckily it isn't that big, so it actually isn't that disruptive, as already said. But I fear there is more shit to come. Just take a look at some renders, it seems they included another ugly modernist wreck.

Edit: "One Madison Park" is the shite they're building next to it. Yuck.
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Last edited by erbse; September 28th, 2008 at 04:46 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 04:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbsenzaehler View Post
^ You named exactly the cities nearly anybody (including me) considers as bland and boring.
What's exciting in Singapore? I can't imagine a more sterile and boring city. I've seen it 4 years ago and was bored to hell (as well as some mainland and coastal Chinese cities - I still regret the decision to visit those places).
Same case goes with most of the 'downtownized' business city centers in North American and Australian cities. In fact their city centers are dead in comparison with European ones. In most cases, at least.

Just take a city like Amsterdam. Its city center is historic, cozy, harmonic - yet vibrant, lively and exciting. Anybody who denies that didn't visit it so far.
Of course, cities of contrasts can be exciting a.s.o. - just look at Berlin, Hamburg or some parts of London. NYC offers loads of contrast as well. But you also have a considerable contingent of beautiful classic architecture on the other hand. So it's somewhat balanced.

This balance shouldn't be disarranged by projects like this.
Look at the most voted cities in the thread "most beautiful cities", and you will find that most of them are not european. In fact, the most voted are usually 4: Rio, New York, Paris and Hong Kong. 4 cities that are beautiful and full of contrast, and 1 european city, that is yes beautiful, but still always the same, static, immobile in its beauty (if you don't consider "la defense" that is probably the least beautiful "famous" part of the city). I've lived 19 years in Rome, a beautiful city, but nothing compared to the "humanity" of New York, not nearly as full as variety and in continuous change like this city. Rome is yes beautiful, but I would never want to live there again. Great to visit, but just boring after a while, just like most european cities (London for example is different, very european but also very modern and metropolitan-like). There is nothing to it, most european cities are just static.

Ad for this building, I think the design isn't perfect (far from it) but is far different from it's surroundings. It is with contrast that you appreciate the singles in themselves. Just like with human beings, if everybody was beautiful, you wouldn't appreciate them nearly as much, because they would be just like everybody else. Mundane.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 05:09 PM   #51
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Please don't repeat those stupid propagandistic modernist phrases you read somewhere. I can't hear it anymore. (Especially regarding your last lines)
"We need the ugly to appreciate the beauty" - that's nothing but bullcrap, sorry.

You don't actually compare a tiny town of 2.6 milllion people to an 8million-metropolis, now do you? That's ridiculous. If you want to, compare Roma with Houston. And you'll see - the 'American Way' definitely falls apart.
(Btw: I'm far from being an Anti-American, I love the US. But I hate unreflected comments and yeasayers. That's not directed to you, romanamerican, but some of the people who posted in here.)


Oh, and regarding the "most beautiful cities": Just think twice. What kind of people would you find in a skyscraper forum? Yeah. So just guess why those people vote for Hong Kong. I mean, honestly - aside of the landscape and some sterile yet cool modern highrises, there's nothing beautiful.

But you're right, many of those cities which names are connected to the attribute of "beautiful" are somewhat boring, looking at the surface. But if you fall deeper into, you easily perceive the true character of those cities. Paris is far from being boring.
Well, of course, there are more exciting cities. But certainly not those mentioned ones such as Singapore, Beijing or the main part of Australian/North American cities
It seems you didn't travel a lot so far.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 05:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbsenzaehler View Post
Please don't repeat those stupid propagandistic modernist phrases you read somewhere. I can't hear it anymore. (Especially regarding your last lines)
"We need the ugly to appreciate the beauty" - that's nothing but bullcrap, sorry.
Sorry, didn't read that anywhere. That is what I truly think, nothing more. And I wouldn't call them "modernists phrases" but simply the way our brain works. Should study some Social Psychology, but maybe you consider that too to be simple BS too.

Quote:
You don't actually compare a tiny town of 2.6 milllion people to an 8million-metropolis, now do you? That's ridiculous. If you want to, compare Roma with Houston. And you'll see - the 'American Way' definitely falls apart.
Tiny town? Rome has a population of 4 million people (calculating the metropolitan area obvously, not what the census is, because it doesn't take into consideration half of the population that officially doesn't live there. I've lived there 19 years, I think I have a decent measure of judgment of my own city. The American-way falls apart? Want to compare it with a smaller city? San Francisco is small enough, and I would chose this city anytime over any other european city, because it is european enough, still being modern at the same time. Whant to see how the european-way falls apart? just go to the south of italy (from Naples to Palermo or Siracuse) or eastern europe (from Bucarest to Ostrava or Bratislava), and Houston will look like paradise.

Quote:
(Btw: I'm far from being an Anti-American, I love the US. But I hate unreflected comments and yeasayers. That's not directed to you, romanamerican, but some of the people who posted in here.)
don't care what you are, I'm just comparing facts and adding my subjective point of view/analysis. You could be a racist or a saint, that doesn't give any more/less weight to what you say.


Quote:
Oh, and regarding the "most beautiful cities": Just think twice. What kind of people would you find in a skyscraper forum? Yeah. So just guess why those people vote for Hong Kong. I mean, honestly - aside of the landscape and some sterile yet cool modern highrises, there's nothing beautiful.
That is a point of view, different from yours, but doesn't mean it has less value. I think a modern city with skyscrapers can be more beautiful than an "older" city. Just another point of view. You have the typical "european" sense of beauty, self-centered in it's abnoxous missreplaced sense of superiority, that is just the product of a type of development that will be different from the one you will find in Asia, or another found in America. That doesn't make it anymore "right" than the rest. That is probably the most embarrassing thing I have to cope with that makes me ashamed of being european.

Quote:
But you're right, many of those cities which names are connected to the attribute of "beautiful" are somewhat boring, looking at the surface. But if you fall deeper into, you easily perceive the true character of those cities. Paris is far from being boring.
Well, of course, there are more exciting cities. But certainly not those mentioned ones such as Singapore, Beijing or the main part of Australian/North American cities
It seems you didn't travel a lot so far.
I still have to find a european city that is nearly as exiting as New York or Rio. I have been to Spain, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Czech Republic in Europe and both East and West coast in North America (US and Canada). And I prefer by far the beauty in canadian/us cities than in any european one I've seen so far. But then, there it is, just another point of view.

Last edited by romanamerican; September 28th, 2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 06:18 PM   #53
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You got the point - it's all about subjective views I won't detain you from those.
Just wanted to question this monochrome "America yay - Europe nay"-attitude. It's commonly spread throughout Europe, whether some people affirm that we'd have some superiority complexes. That rather is the case for the US, you can't deny that - and it's far from being a stereotype that they have a limited, America-centered view of the world. Asians are more neutral in this regard (than both, EU and US), that's true.

So you're fully americanized now. Congratulations

Perhaps I'm going to seize your other points later on.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 06:22 PM   #54
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ok, erbenzaehler, This is a discussion that belongs in skyscrapers, structures, and architecture section, not here. ON this page, there has been basically no discussion about the building located on 23 East 22nd street.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #55
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Mea culpa. But in the end, everything leads us to the question: Should we build such structures in historic surroundings?
Aren't there more than enough locations to try something like this?


(This tower won't generate some confusing 40pages-discussion anyway, so I think it's okay to question those matters.)


And, btw: Most of the 'discussions' over here consist of slipslop like "Z0MG!!! That's so awesome!! LOLz!!1one" or "YEAH, cool,!!!11 H0w menny fl00rs???".

So what kind of discussion do you expect here? If there's something worthy to discuss, it's the idea, the background and the outer view on this tower and anything that leads to those viewpoints. There's no 'offtopic' in this regard.

If there's some information you're searching for, you'll find it on the 1st page.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 07:43 PM   #56
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Can we please talk about this wonderfull OMA project for NYC again and ignore this old conservative german lady above?
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Old September 28th, 2008, 07:49 PM   #57
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Well, start talking, maid.

If you don't have anything to say, leave.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 07:56 PM   #58
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You ignore the fact what manhattan makes manhattan my dear friend, and that is contrast! Maybe you should read the famous book Delirious New York written by the designer of this marvelous new little tower.

You seem not to know thi area very well, calling it a historic neighbourhood, because it isn't. There are many modern building here, like the almost finished tower on madison square.

New York is a collection of styles, functions & sizes all mixed up. If you don't like it, your problem, but then you are here in the wrong place. Then you better visit a nice european lowrise forum.

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Old September 28th, 2008, 08:17 PM   #59
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It's not because I don't like highrises. I like historical highrises and sophisticated modern ones. But I don't like this highrise at this particular location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyscrapercitizen View Post
You seem not to know thi area very well, calling it a historic neighbourhood, because it isn't. There are many modern building here, like the almost finished tower on madison square.
I already mentioned 1 Madison Square. It's not any better.

And you seem to be the one who doesn't know the area. I've been to this neighborhood many times, since I lived in Philly for 6 months and went to NYC as often as possible.
Some of the world's finest and most famous historical highrises are to be found there.

Just to give you an overview:

[IMG]http://i33.************/mrtklj.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i36.************/2j1jytf.jpg[/IMG]
(taken fromLiveMaps)


Almost no modern buildings around this place. Ever heard of the infamous ensemble impression? This will be destroyed if crammed with modernist stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyscrapercitizen View Post
New York is a collection of styles, functions & sizes all mixed up. If you don't like it, your problem, but then you are here in the wrong place.
Does the pope shit in the woods? Of course it's a collection of styles, and I love everything about it. But this particular place doesn't have to look like any other one around Manhattan, does it?
It's one of the very few big ensembles of pre-depression skyscraper architecture.

I just don't get why you guys don't get my point. I'm not against this tower, I'm against the location. Even fellow NYers agreed with me.
I guess they know their home somewhat better than some Rotterdam dude.
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Old September 28th, 2008, 09:05 PM   #60
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I don't like the way you discuss.

But just for the record, I've been to NY 3 times. First time my hotel was on 25th street, 2 minutes from madison square. The second time I lived in NY for 3 months and visited this area weekly or more, so if you want to discuss it that way, I think I know this city and this location better hen you do.

If the new yorkers in the first decades of the 20th century had your point of view, all these cool historic skyscrapers wouldn't be there, think about that.

I don't get the point why this building shouldn't fit in here. I can understand if you say so about 1 madison square (I don't agree) but not about this little tower.
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