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Old September 16th, 2008, 11:41 PM   #1
DrT
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MISC | Train Control

How prevalent is this safety measure used in Europe?

Only 2 or 3% of track in the US is covered.
Our RR companies say it is untested and too expensive.

Any thoughts?
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Old September 17th, 2008, 08:56 AM   #2
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"The European Train Control System (ETCS) is a signalling, control and train protection system designed to replace the many incompatible safety systems currently used by European railways, especially on high-speed lines."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETCS
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Old September 17th, 2008, 12:46 PM   #3
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Spain

Red TOTAL: 13.117,63 Km

ERTMS / ETCS :

Madrid - Barcelona 621 km

Madrid - Valladolid 180 km

Zaragoza - Huesca 22 km

LZB:

Madrid - Sevilla 471 km

Córdoba - Málaga 155 km

ERTMS + LZB

Toledo - La Sagra 21 km

11,37 %
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Old September 17th, 2008, 03:30 PM   #4
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The first ever ETCS was built on the Budapest-Hegyeshalom(Vienna line)-178 km
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Old September 19th, 2008, 09:28 PM   #5
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In the UK we have semi-positive train control - in most areas you can't really drive a train by accident through a red light by means of AWS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Warning_System, although the driver can override it. It covers basically the entire network. It's not by any means failsafe though

Quote:
Disadvantages

Because it was developed before multiple-aspect signalling became widespread, AWS can only indicate whether a signal is "Green" or "not Green". Even though a multiple-aspect signal can display three or four aspects, AWS has only two states.

AWS is an advisory system, and can be easily overridden by habituated reactions of the driver, especially when he/she is proceeding at speed under a series of "double yellow" signals which indicate a signal at 'danger' two sections ahead. This has led to a number of fatal accidents. Also, there is no compulsory stop when a red signal is passed. The newer TPWS, which operates at certain stop signals and on the approach to some speed restrictions and buffer stops, overcomes some of these problems.
TPWS is better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_P...Warning_System.

Neither of them are fully protective, and Network Rail intends to upgrade most of the network to in cab signallin using the european system ETCS level 2 or 3. How this is going to work hasn't been fully thrashed out yet, but its being tested on a rural line in Wales.
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Old September 20th, 2008, 10:30 AM   #6
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In the Netherlands only some museum, freight lines don't have an automatic protection system. Since 2006 all lines with speeds exceeding 40 km/h should've been equiped with a protection system, this has been done except for the border lines to Belgium.

Most lines are equipped with the Dutch ATB system. The problem with this system is that it only works over 40 km/h, this has caused some accidents especially close to stations.

The new freightline "Betuwe Route" from the harbor in Rotterdam to Germany has ERTMS / ETCS level 2 in operation. On the new high speed line HSL Zuid from Amsterdam to Antwerp (Belgium) it's also installed and will be used when the lines goes into operation (hopefully later this year). And the first old line that will be equiped with ERTMS / ETCS level 2 is the Amsterdam - Utrecht line.
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Old October 9th, 2008, 11:05 AM   #7
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Safty of the people should be the foucs of the administration. If the economic condition allows, we should increase the safty of life.

wow gold, wow gold cheap, buy cheap wow gold
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Old January 27th, 2015, 11:57 PM   #8
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Good Explanation of Train Control in the US and Canada ...



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Old January 28th, 2015, 09:16 PM   #9
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I saw those videos before, but still watched them again because I forgot how they worked in the meantime (and they still remain confusing).
At the end of part 2 I noticed that since yesterday there is also a part 3:
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Old January 30th, 2015, 12:37 AM   #10
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The Netherlands had a pretty similar system that was designed in 1946. The actual used patterns were different, but the ideas the same. One big (but probably quite handy) difference was that the medium and slow signals had the speeds written on them. The medium and slow speeds of this signal are respectively 75km/h and 30km/h.


Had, as a new system was designed less than ten years later, in 1955. This system uses a light emitting number to show the speeds (minus the zero, so a 4 means 40km/h). It is still used today. A yellow + number means slow down to this speed. Flashing green + number means pass at this speed (no number=40km/h). This also replaced the double yellow or flashing yellow. If the distance is to short to come to a full stop between two signals, it is preceded with a yellow + number (usually 8). Here is an example of what 'pass at 80km/h' looks like:


What actually surprises me the most is that the US has switches for less than 40km/h(=25mph). The term 'high speed switch' (although some would say that there is no such thing) usually only applies to switches for over 120km/h(=75mph). Practically full speed.
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Old January 30th, 2015, 12:55 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
What actually surprises me the most is that the US has switches for less than 40km/h(=25mph). The term 'high speed switch' (although some would say that there is no such thing) usually only applies to switches for over 120km/h(=75mph). Practically full speed.
In ex. USSR a 80 km/h switch is considered to be a fairly high speed one with most switches being 40-50 km/h ones. So diverging at 80 km/h has a different signal indication - a yellow and flashing green with 3 small horizontal greens instead of just a yellow and flashing yellow.
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Old January 30th, 2015, 08:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
What actually surprises me the most is that the US has switches for less than 40km/h(=25mph).
I think it's actually the Netherlands being quite unique for not having switches for less than 40 km/h on main tracks. In the UK there are still plenty of 15 mph switches. In France the speed in yards and station approaches is usually limited to 30 km/h because of the switches. In Germany there are also several examples like the approach to Cologne from the Hohenzollern bridge is also 20 km/h to 30 km/h because of switches and the tight curve.
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Old January 30th, 2015, 09:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
I think it's actually the Netherlands being quite unique for not having switches for less than 40 km/h on main tracks.
Not totally unique as this is the case for Belgium too. And the trend is to go
even higher : normally now everywhere it is possible, switches for diverging
at 60 km/h are used - not always possible because they are longer. But for
liaisons between main tracks (used to switch to and from "wrong main") this
is the norm now. And there are quite many of those, as the entire belgian
network is now "bi-directional".
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Old January 30th, 2015, 01:19 PM   #14
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That's an interesting discussion in itself: Pretty much the entire Netherlands (all?) is bi-directional ("double single track") as well. This does have some consequences: This bi-directional capability makes the signalling more complicated and requires that trains are run on the 'wrong track' at least every few days to function test the signalling. Also all the cross-over switches must be used at least once every day, to prevent malfunctions in the train detection loops because of rust the tracks ("roestrijden" usually done by freight trains at night).

Japan has chosen to stick with uni-directional signalling ("double track"), because they estimated they rarely need the feature, it costs extra to implement and makes the signalling more complicated.

Contrary to the past, where you could take one track out of service for maintenance or during accidents and still use the other one, this practice is not allowed any more in the Netherlands. In those cases all adjacent tracks must be put out of service as well. In case of a signalling malfunction usually both tracks are affected as well.

So in a lot of cases I ask: Why would you still implement something you almost never use?
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Old January 30th, 2015, 01:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
So in a lot of cases I ask: Why would you still implement something you almost never use?
If that wasn't western Europe, I would say it's because of otkat. But since it is western Europe, there must be some thought underneath all that signaling.
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Old January 30th, 2015, 06:45 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
So in a lot of cases I ask: Why would you still implement something you almost never use?
In Belgium we still can keep a track open for traffic when works are taking
place on the adjacent track, provided adequate security measures are in place
to prevent accidents with the workers on site. For example between
Namur and Arlon the line now is being re-built and there are 4 sections where
one track is taken out of service for weeks, and the other one shared for
both directions.

Also, the bi-directional signalling is also heavily used to make a fast train
overtake a slower one, let two trains depart a station at the same time,
overtake a broken-down train, and other things like that.
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Old January 30th, 2015, 06:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Japan has chosen to stick with uni-directional signalling ("double track"), because they estimated they rarely need the feature, it costs extra to implement and makes the signalling more complicated.
As far as I know, this is only true on their high-speed network, and it is not
for cost reasons, but simply because their traffic density is so high, it would
not be possible to establish a single track service anyway.
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Old January 30th, 2015, 08:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
all the cross-over switches must be used at least once every day, to prevent malfunctions in the train detection loops because of rust the tracks ("roestrijden" usually done by freight trains at night).
What is done to prevent this on railway lines with just 1 or less trains per day?
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Old January 30th, 2015, 09:29 PM   #19
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In Spain the majority (sorry no more accurate data) of double track sections are bi-directional. Serve for incidents and to increase the capacity for maintaining of one of the tracks.
No need to do any checking or changing the direction of the regular circulation.

In the HSR Madrid-Sevilla maintenance is done without trains, so although it was bi-directional, the facilities were not complete and did not allow the circulation in the same conditions. This did not prevent that, initially, when you could not drive in double, two trains to depart at once each by a track. Currently he is completely bi-directional (with preferred driving on the right) as well as the rest of the HSR.
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Old January 31st, 2015, 06:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
I think it's actually the Netherlands being quite unique for not having switches for less than 40 km/h on main tracks. In the UK there are still plenty of 15 mph switches. In France the speed in yards and station approaches is usually limited to 30 km/h because of the switches. In Germany there are also several examples like the approach to Cologne from the Hohenzollern bridge is also 20 km/h to 30 km/h because of switches and the tight curve.
Actually, 1520 mm are also not known for low speed switches - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railro...Turnout_speeds
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