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Old December 23rd, 2014, 02:06 AM   #381
alserrod
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Thx a lot.

Did you use the service?
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Old December 23rd, 2014, 02:40 AM   #382
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Yes, two quick trips. I used the buses also. Its a good city and I enjoyed it. The trams are similar to our trams in Dublin but the lack of wires in the City Centre is a great idea and despite what was said in Dublin, the trams run well in Zaragoza with the pantograph down.
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Old June 8th, 2015, 07:59 PM   #383
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Amazing double picture. In the centre, a very old Zaragoza tramway. In the corners, a current picture of today's Plaza de España.





It has been spotted more or less here

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.65176...RjDghwWNjw!2e0



Picture credits are from the own tramway company and sent via social networks
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Old July 23rd, 2015, 01:06 AM   #384
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This picture has been uploaded by Zaragoza tramways in their media resources




It was the former line 4. I do not know how many years it can have... maybe more than 50?


It was taken here

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.65731...7i13312!8i6656
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Old August 26th, 2015, 08:53 PM   #385
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According to a news release, traffic over the line 1 has decreased an average of 50% among these years
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Old August 26th, 2015, 11:53 PM   #386
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Why did it lose riders?
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Old August 27th, 2015, 12:15 AM   #387
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Sorry for misunderstanding.

No decrease of tram traffic and passengers but car traffic paralel to the line
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Old August 27th, 2015, 11:45 PM   #388
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That's exact opposite of what you initially wrote
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Old August 29th, 2015, 04:43 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
That's exact opposite of what you initially wrote
Absolutely conversely. It is the problem translating "word-to-word"
In Spanish, "less traffic" = "less car traffic" (along the tram line streets).
To talk about passengers traffic we should talk about "number of passengers".

By the way, they are wondering how to achieve 100.000 in a weekly day but seems almost impossible (it will remain in 90-92.000)
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Old August 29th, 2015, 07:54 PM   #390
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It would have been better if you had just posted the article in Spanish and then let readers translate for themselves.

Quote:
Solo Gran Vía y la plaza Emperador tienen más tráfico con el tranvía

Son las dos únicas zonas en el eje del 'Urbos 3' donde se ha incrementado. De media, se ha reducido más del 50% en la mayoría de los puntos clave

Con el futuro de la línea 2 del tranvía de Zaragoza en el aire, los datos sobre el tráfico en el eje del Urbos 3 demuestran un descenso notable de coches a lo largo de todo su recorrido. Desde la inauguración del primer tramo, en abril del 2011, Gran Vía y la plaza Emperador Carlos V son los únicos puntos del eje del tranvía en los que se ha incrementado el tráfico diario, una media de 8.220 y 4.490 vehículos más, respectivamente.
http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/n...a_1048357.html

This basically confirm that Zaragoza tram is the only really successful tram in Spain in changing the transport habits of its citizens, in all other cases the tram has had an insignificant impact on car traffic where it runs, here they see a massive decrease in traffic along most of the route, 20-30 and even 40 thousand cars less per day.

The caveat is that the article does not talk about other auxiliary streets that most probably have seen an increase in traffic as drivers change their driving habits to avoid the tram route which has less space for cars now.
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Old August 29th, 2015, 08:17 PM   #391
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Any theories on why is that? Is perhaps Zaragoza the biggest city in Spain with a tram, but no subway?

Also gincan's concern about side streets is a valid one. To figure it out we'd need to also look at tram passenger numbers and change in traffic levels within 10 min walking distance from any tram station.
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Old August 29th, 2015, 08:19 PM   #392
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Yes, it is.

There is a little commuter line but no subway.
And line 2 is under project nowadays
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Old August 29th, 2015, 08:22 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
It would have been better if you had just posted the article in Spanish and then let readers translate for themselves.



http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/n...a_1048357.html

This basically confirm that Zaragoza tram is the only really successful tram in Spain in changing the transport habits of its citizens, in all other cases the tram has had an insignificant impact on car traffic where it runs, here they see a massive decrease in traffic along most of the route, 20-30 and even 40 thousand cars less per day.

The caveat is that the article does not talk about other auxiliary streets that most probably have seen an increase in traffic as drivers change their driving habits to avoid the tram route which has less space for cars now.


I didn't want to link the news because there are something wrong there and without a Spanish knowledge, it could be confusing.

In the news they say traffic (cars) are 50% lower except in one square (due to other avenues traffic I guess) and in an avenue... that I wonder how did they calculate... and in the same news they said that traffic is terribly low now in one corner of the same avenue that has increased traffic. Could it be just a corner with a peaceful street or so that now is not so peaceful. That's all?. I suppose it.

For that reason I prefered to sum up and just say traffic (cars) have decreased 50% as average in the streets where tram runs
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Old August 29th, 2015, 08:27 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
And line 2 is under project nowadays
Tram line or commuter rail line?

Locals maybe have other priorities, but when I was there I thought a tram line from AVE station to the city centre would have been useful.
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Old August 29th, 2015, 08:29 PM   #395
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Tram line. It will be 600m away from station but will not cross it.

Maybe tonight or tomorrow I will take a time to explain why it doesn't worth to pass the line 2 over the station (surely...)
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Old August 30th, 2015, 12:13 AM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I didn't want to link the news because there are something wrong there and without a Spanish knowledge, it could be confusing.
Nah, the woman simply doesn't understand interpreting the data driving the article she has written, something very common with technical newspaper articles written by journalists with no technical background.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Any theories on why is that?
The route for the first line was fairly obvious, so for it to fail would have meant a total rejection from Zaragozians as the route is very convenient for anyone living within its catchment area. It links up commercial, office and leisure destinations with rather dense residential neighborhoods.

Last edited by gincan; August 30th, 2015 at 12:26 AM.
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Old August 30th, 2015, 11:20 AM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
This basically confirm that Zaragoza tram is the only really successful tram in Spain in changing the transport habits of its citizens, in all other cases the tram has had an insignificant impact on car traffic where it runs, here they see a massive decrease in traffic along most of the route, 20-30 and even 40 thousand cars less per day.
Vitoria and Santa Cruz de Tenerife could also be on the list of successful Spanish trams.

In Barcelona and Valencia trams have also been successful, although in these cities there are metro networks and trams act primarily as feeder routes.

There are also cities where tram has a huge potential but the network is yet to be finished, like Murcia or Alicante. When completely finished, trams in both cities will be a story of success, I'm sure. The same can be said of the tram under construction in Granada.

Then there are cities where tram networks are a toy (Sevilla and Bilbao) or others where they have been badly planned (Madrid).

Finally there are shameful cases of trams without service due to political disputes and lack of planning (Jaén and Vélez-Málaga).
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Old August 30th, 2015, 02:20 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Tram line or commuter rail line?

Locals maybe have other priorities, but when I was there I thought a tram line from AVE station to the city centre would have been useful.
We have really written thousands of pages about this issue.

First line (L1) took the two most used corridors. They have a five minute tram on almost all the day (7-10 and 13:30-20, and in the late morning and till 22 every 7 minutes) and on peak hours it is absolutelly full. It is one of the most critizised clues about Zaragoza tramway (lack of capacity). They didn't thought they would have so many passengers increase... but it is real...coming from some new neighbourhoods far away to city centre requires just 20 minutes and it is terribly punctual.


About L2 I took some months ago statistics for all bus lines (nowadays after they have been changed due to tramway). They are mostly corner-to-corner (no corner-to centre) and I just divided fifty-fifty for each destination.


Some forumers have proposed several tramway lines. My answer is always the same... should a line is OK to get passengers through all the day and in peak hours having a full tramway every five minutes (this is, 2,5 double buses), let's go. Shouldn't... let's lay there good bus network but no interest to invest there.

Glancing numbers I made, the western side of L2 is, by far, the next line will have more passengers. Later, the other corner of L2 or any of L3 are "tied" in that way


Why a tramway and not a subway?

Well... from my point of view it is just a "money counter issue".

The contract with tramway society talks about a fixed amount and a variable amount depending of number of passengers. Town hall will get all incomes of tramway (and buses) and will pay society the exact sume.

This is... they will earn all my 0,74 euro each time I use it (ticket with touchless card, the most used, it could be cheaper if monthly pass or more expensive if single ticket. I will take that number as an average). They calculate the amount to pay to tramway society and, adding all tickets sold, they have to pay an average of 7,5 millions per year.

They variable system takes up to 70% of estimated passengers quite expensive, next 10% less expensive, next ones less expensive and so on. After 100% of estimated passengers, price that town hall has to pay is lower than a single ticket
We have reached 130% of estimated passengers. Any extra passenger (for instance, if I take this morning I will be an extra passenger over those 130%) will make town hall paying 0,09 extra euro because me... but I have payed 0,74 as any other passenger!!!!

To sum up... 7,5 million euro per year (after all passenger tickets incoming) for the 25% of urban passengers (bus + tramway)
The other 75% of passengers use buses (Line 1 goes corner to corner passing through leisure points, city centre, office area, shopping areas and so on... but only one line. It doesn't worth for all population)

The bus service takes 60 million euro and only 75% passengers
They have, obviously, these kind of little lines that makes a public service but barely passengers.



I do not want to make a cityVscity but... briefly, Malaga underground (70% underground, 30% tramway) has the same distance as Zaragoza tramway and really the exact same trains (Urbos3)

After 10 years work they opened lines with a 7 minutes frequency in peak hours due to it doesn't reach city centre.

Because of costing, they have to pay... 75 million euro (for 35 years!!!!)

That's really worst than a mortgage for cities with 600-800 million euro budget per year (you can pay for several years, but having 75 million for so many years means you will have to cut other services or making barely more projects)

Underground is nice, faster and remains access to all streets on top. Sometimes we can wonder if a small branch can be subway instead of on top but... be sure that there are some medium cities with underground that... do not know how to pay it.

Three lines tramway in Zaragoza cost the same as one subway line. I prefer, by far, a full network rather than a line and do not know how to pay the rest...
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Old August 30th, 2015, 02:33 PM   #399
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Zaragoza is too small for a proper subway so trams is a right way to go. I don't think it's even worth a discussion. Malaga is a bit of a borderline case too, but it does make some sense there. Bigger city, a lot more visitors and much higher prospects for future population growth.

Alserrod: do you have a map with your proposal for L2?
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Old August 30th, 2015, 03:27 PM   #400
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It is not too small: compare it to Rennes in France, smaller, with one subway line and a second under construction.
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