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Old May 9th, 2009, 02:02 AM   #781
Alle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transport21 View Post
Its not speculation the Irish government have announced lately this will be coming into effect after the next budget in December. The details of the tax havnt been announced yet but I can only imagine its a few more hundred Euro out of my pocket

The minority green party is in coalition with the government and they are madly focus on envoirmental issues. Its really just an extra tax from what I see. The big litre cars will be targeted.
What I meant is that the motivation behind it is based on speculation about CO2 (which by the way was at its lowest level for the past 600 million years some 150 years ago).

I used to support the major "green" party here in Sweden until i realised the hypocrisy of what they are doing. One example relevant to this; the subsidization of ethanole.

There have been investigations showing that if all of the worlds traffic fleet drove on ethanole, the area needed to grow the neccessary crops would exceed the agrable area of the planet, including uncultivated areas. So basically, they are proposing, that to "save" the ecology/biosphere endangered supposedly by a supposedly anthropologically caused climate change, that we in fact destroy this very basic premise for the ecology and the diversial wealth which makes it more resistant to changes.

But the main point is, there are so many more acute environmental issues in our time, our biosphere is being hurt not because of carbon dioxide, a natural and essential gas for life on earth (cant believe that people dare call it a "polutant"), but because of deforestation, fragmentation of biospheres, overpopulation, increasing amount of chemicals in nature whose combined effects are often very badly understood, general expansion of human activities. This is what is hurting the biosphere, not carbondioxide or changes of climate. And these much more dangerous and for our time relevant and acute issues are not getting attention because politicans who want to look good but know little about this use the CO2 nonsense for their own purposes and agendas.

As far as greenhouse gases, like all other issues of nature, I think we should seek to affect our surroundings as little as possible. There are many artificial greenhouse gases such as SF6 and others which have a life span in the atmosphere of tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of years, their greenhouse effect reaches many thousand times that of CO2 molecules, they are important to deal with. CO2 on the other hand gets turned around over some decades and is a natural component of the biosphere, and as far as energy alternatives there are plenty on the horizon. Thus if anything these should be dealt with.

The Earth is not a static ball either, to go back over the past 600 million years, the age by the way of some of the older rock formations of the European continent. Over that period CO2 levels have been over 20 times that of today, only during the carboniferous have CO2 levels been around the levels of today. Just a thousand years ago, the earth was several degrees warmer than today, which is why Greenland carries its name. During the later parts of the past ice age, there was a gigantic lake in Russia likely supporting a lot of human and other life which today does not exist anymore as it likely ran out into the northern seas, much of North America was covered under water through the same glaciation period. During parts of this whole period the earth was so warm that dinosaurs annually migrated to the south pole because of the lush vast arrays of food that were to be found there. Things change with time, so how is the parallel with CO2 drawn? Is it taken into consideration that the frequency range its greenhouse characteristics operate in also gets saturated with an increase of the gas, a fourtime increase in CO2 doesnt mean a fourtime increase in the greenhouse effects of the CO2 (Water is the most important greenhouse gas by the way, for those that do not know, by an overwhelming margin).

Most of the climate changes are spurred by things like the changes in the suns magnetic effect and subsequently heliosphere which is connected to the formation of clouds on our planet which is one of the biggest factors for our climate. Higher magnetic activity --> a stronger heliosphere --> less cosmic particles reaching earth (and the solar system as a whole) --> considerably less cloud formation possible (charged particles from space play an instrumental part in the formation of clouds) --> less light reflected. On a general scale climate correlations are badly understood. What gets me is the foolish graphs people repeatedly use, used by Al Gore in his equally foolish presentations which show temperatures and CO2 levels. What is not mentioned is that CO2 level changes occur after climate changes and not the other way around (because over 9/10's of the free CO2 are in the oceans and gets gradually released as temperatues increase), if they do not even note such a basic thing, how can we trust them to create laws that we should pay for the existence of a natural gas in the atmosphere, whose period of plentysomeness has historically meant a flourishing biosphere on the planet not only due to the climate accompassing it but because as a gas it is essential to the biosphere on the planet which has developed so that it cannot exist without CO2?

The connection between CO2, climate and in turn biosphere and nature is vaguely understood and to say the least speculative. To make laws about it, when there are acute real environmental issues facing the lands of the earth, is outrageous.

Further, how is this supposed to work, you cannot practically measure CO2 emissions and thus cannot have a rigorous law on taxation of it. It gets even more mad when there is talk about extracting CO2 from the atmosphere and trapping it in rock, who gives these people the authority to laborate with the atmosphere that will all live in?

NASA corrections have shown not a long time ago that the warmest year of the 20th century was in the 1930's. since then, scientists have not been able to make up their mind as to whether it would get colder or warmer after that. Most today predict a warming, but it was not long ago that it was a great ice age that was the "big danger".

Focus on real, acute problems which are endangering ecology today, CO2 is not one of them, and nor are any climate changes.

Does this mean I encourage people to drive hummers and SUV's? No, that causes local pollution not the least. Im just stressing the reality that there are worse environmental issues (much worse), that need to be considered, and if they are not solved, this issue really doesnt matter much (not to, again, mention the many complexities of it, and that there is money to be made in it for the financial circus we live in). Is it that relevant in a hundred years if our nature has been deforested and a large part of the biosphere died out due to lack of living space? Is it relevant then if there is 350 ppm of CO2 or 400 ppm in the atmosphere?.

There are much more alert and very real envrionmental problems out there today, that are directly and unmistakenly responsible for a destruction of natural diversity and consequently a planet that is more prone to take damage from both natural and by humans caused (not that we are not natural) changes. These happen now, today, and are stupidly overlooked because of something (global warming) that is both poorly understood, less acutely dangerous and in some ways even positive.

Many of the proposed so called "solutions" are even worse to the environment than is a possible change in climate caused by humans (I am not talking about the physically impossible doomsday scenarios), not to mention the infringement they often cause on our liberties and how they in long term are not a solution to a sustainable and free society.

As far as fuel I think hydrogen is a good option for an energy carrier in the future, can be produced locally for local fuel stations, and does not need to be transported over the planet.

EDIT: I had a previous post on these forums where I had gathered some quotes about these issues, be that as it may they are deleted since. Without having incentive to gather up said quotations again il provide some useful sources as far as the climates affects on CO2 levels historically and how hard it is to judge the effect on CO2. Not least since even trying to specify the effect of water percentually on greenhouse effect can range maybe 30-40%+ from different sources, there are many things that are crucial for this that vary a lot. The sources also dissect positive effects of increases in CO2 (in fact a widely believed reason that it on Mars never developed any (at least substantial) life, is that its atmosphere has been too thin and eventually the planet lost much of it. A healthy atmosphere is in fact a thick one and it varies whether we want it or not, buffered by the gaia process (which is one thing dependant on the diversity of lifeforms on the planet, mainly because there are practically always quite many that can survive changes).

- Climate in Earth History: Studies in Geophysics (1982)

- Natural Climate Variability on Decade-to-Century Time Scales (1995)

- Graph for past 600 million years, statistic sources included on bottom left

- Temperature and CO2 variations for last 160 000 years, note CO2 change trailing temperature changes

- Sun effect together with temperature and CO2 changes for past 150 000 years

- Raw statistics, including sun spot numbers, solar radiation, temperature, CO2 volume in atmosphere (I do not think the NASA correction for the thirties is included here. Also consider that deforestation is another factor amongst several more which affects both CO2 levels and more substantially temperatures as more radiation can generate heat as it reaches the ground.)

- NASA corrections

Quote:
Top 10 GISS U.S. Temperature deviation (deg C) in New Order 8/7/2007
Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85

Here’s the old order of top 10 yearly temperatures.
Year Old New
1998 1.24 1.23
1934 1.23 1.25
2006 1.23 1.13
1921 1.12 1.15
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
2001 0.90 0.76
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
Life can survive and find solutions for inevitable climate variations, and in many cases benefit from such changes, but no lifeform can find a solution to simply having its habitat lost, or being poisoned. There is no doubt that there are financial interests on both "sides" of the political approach to this issue, however it needs to be considered the implication of that a natural essential for life gas is being taxed (!). And this on a large scale level as far as political authority, national and it has even been proposed from supra national instances.

I am a proponent of direct democracy, and in such a society, where collaborative and coordinated efforts on such issues depend on local democratic support from the involved communities, these kind of actions would depend on actual, convincing proofs to be implemented, and thus we would not have carbon taxes, I am confident. That not saying that other environmental issues would not be more effectively dealt with, local and beyond. And even if there were actions as far as CO2 emissions, I would be more comfortable with them if it was decided in ones own community whether we are okey with the tax and what it is used for. (Democracy and society is a two way road, but our society is becoming in many ways increasingly a one way road. In the Soviet Union there was an internal joke about the telephone line from Berlin to Moscow - in that the Berlin part had only a speaker and no microphone, because it was a one way telephone line.)
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Old May 10th, 2009, 06:30 AM   #782
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where is the most expensive gas in the world?
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Old May 10th, 2009, 10:54 AM   #783
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where is the most expensive gas in the world?
Probably in places where it's really scarce, like Somalia, Eritrea or Liberia. Also: remote places have higher gas prices, look at the Alaska / contiguous US difference already.
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Old May 10th, 2009, 01:14 PM   #784
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Euro95 was 1,199€/l near Milan yesterday
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Old May 10th, 2009, 01:53 PM   #785
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Probably in places where it's really scarce, like Somalia, Eritrea or Liberia. Also: remote places have higher gas prices, look at the Alaska / contiguous US difference already.
Yeah, I noticed that. Last summer gas was $4,50/gallon in Anchorage (AK), $5,30/gallon in some creepy town on the Richardson Hwy (also AK) and I read in some paper that the gas price was $8,30/gallon in Barrow (northern AK)

Ok, at that time we paid $10,50/gallon in NL....
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Old May 10th, 2009, 02:45 PM   #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alle View Post
Focus on real, acute problems which are endangering ecology today, CO2 is not one of them, and nor are any climate changes.
+1
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Old May 10th, 2009, 11:34 PM   #787
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Quote:
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thats surely a joke?
Nope, those were the prices in march/april when i visited Dubai.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 12:42 AM   #788
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I've heard that in Turkey not very long ago gas hit 12.00 USD /gallon! is this true?
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Old May 11th, 2009, 01:07 AM   #789
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Venezuela
95 .. 0.035€ Liter
91 .. 0.025€ Liter
Diesel .. 0.018 Liter
Cheapest in the worl I believe
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Old May 11th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #790
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I've heard that in Turkey not very long ago gas hit 12.00 USD /gallon! is this true?
Could be true during summer 2008... not recently.
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Old May 11th, 2009, 12:56 PM   #791
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Abcoude today:

Euro 95: €1,40/L
Diesel: €1,03/L
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Old May 11th, 2009, 11:12 PM   #792
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prices in American gallons in NJ

49 cents per liter of 92

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Old May 12th, 2009, 03:35 AM   #793
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Malaysian fuel price today:

*Petronas/Shell/Mobil/Esso/BHPetrol all have to abide same price.

RON97 - MYR 1.80/liter = USD 0.51/liter

RON92 - MYR 1.70/liter = USD 0.48/liter

Diesel - MYR 1.70/liter = USD 0.48/liter

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Old May 12th, 2009, 09:21 AM   #794
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Quote:
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prices in American gallons in NJ

49 cents per liter of 92



In southeast Michigan they have gone up again.

At a local Speedway station, a gallon of reg. unleaded fuel costs $2.39 (it was almost 40 cents cheaper just a week ago). A gallon of auto diesel is $2.19.

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Old May 14th, 2009, 11:07 PM   #795
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What's the current fuel price in Norway? The media always says Norway has the most expensive gasoline in Europe, but I want to know if it's really more expensive than NL.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 11:09 PM   #796
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Quote:
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In southeast Michigan they have gone up again.

At a local Speedway station, a gallon of reg. unleaded fuel costs $2.39 (it was almost 40 cents cheaper just a week ago). A gallon of auto diesel is $2.19.

Yup prices are going back up our asses again.
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Old May 14th, 2009, 11:17 PM   #797
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Welcome to the real world!
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:31 AM   #798
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Yea the oil execs need another mansion.
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Old May 15th, 2009, 01:37 AM   #799
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Does anyone know a reliable source of gas prices in Luxembourg? Which is the closest gas station to the Belgian city of Bastogne?
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Old May 15th, 2009, 09:29 AM   #800
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Martelange! Martelange is on the N4, and is actually in Belgium, but the N4 runs on the border of Luxembourg, and all the houses on the west side are in Belgium, but the gas stations are on the east side in Luxembourg. The N4 is a conveniant and fast road from Bastogne to Martelange.
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gas prices:
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These pics were taking during easter, I heard the prices increased 10 - 15 cents meanwhile.
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