Bradford | Odeon - New Victoria Place | Canc

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

I was watching the Park at The Heart Look North Report and I likes this view of how the Odeon and The Alhambra fit together well and how they look individually

I agree, they really complement each other well. Destroying one would seriously harm the other. If this ever does happen, and it gets restored into a nightclub, hotel or whatever, it will just add to the boost Bradford will get when it eventually rises out of it's state of depression.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by MattN

Listed status is not an easy thing to justify conferring upon a building, it's perfectly possible for them to find a building worthy of retention without it meeting the listing criteria. As for skyscrapers in London, I see gripes from London members here and there without really knowing the ins and outs of it, but surely there are certain views of the likes of St. Paul's that need protecting?

I guess so, but I suppose I'm frustrated with that level of bureaucracy interfering with the groups intentions. I guess to some extent having a building listed doesn't actually help out when you want to make alterations to it but still keep it as a building. If there was some variety of regulation that would list a building and then permit sensible alterations to an extent that would guarantee the building's life and use.

Originally Posted by emma72

But in reality listed building status doesn't neccesarily save a building - take a look at Wapping First School or Fountains Hall or any of the buildings on the Save Britains Heritage website. I imagine many councils let this destruction happen then English Heritage find that 'due to mix ups ' they don't receive survey responses and subsequently don't get a full overview of what's really happening!

And there is also this. I know, I found that 'mix up' statement to be unbelievable, even more so that English Heritage just accepted it. Meanwhile a number of mill & warehouse buildings have either been demolished or burnt down including two in a conservation area, and they don't receive any word I bet. As you were saying though, it doesn't always necessarily save a building, though in this case there is a plan there to bring it back into use and a listing status would guarantee the building be restored according to that plan. Of course BORG would probably have to make concessions to stick to the strict guidelines but then so would anybody. Have to say Wapping Road First School is a tragedy though.

Originally Posted by The Odeon Crusader

This archive image may give a better idea of how the terracotta blocks could look if the tower bases were uncovered and cleaned up...



The blocks are all still under there as is...

BORG were to commission a night time image of their scheme as seen from the Jacobs Well side to show how both the Alhambra and Odeon would look illuminated and full of life.

However, producing such images costs a lot of money and when Yorkshire Forward reneged on Jan Anderson's offer to sell the Odeon BORG decided to put the visuals on hold for financial reasons. BORG are self-financed, although cash contributions do come through now and then... it ain't cheap, dudes!!!

BCR were happy to waste our cash on endless visuals though...

That original photo does look fantastic and would be great to have that back and fully restored. It just looks so ornate, making the original decision to concrete over it even more confusing.

Interesting to hear about the other render, though fully understandable for it not being commissioned. I'm guessing this was the intended view though:




It would be interesting to see any sketched ideas you might have had for these other parts not seen in the render, or any explanations about what is proposed along the Alhambra Side, along Quebec Street and around the back of the building. What is the design for these parts of the façade and what is considered to be done with some of those back street parts of the building as well as the former car park infill area?

Originally Posted by The Odeon Crusader

ps - I don't know if the orange tiles are coming off... I've not been down to the Odeon since Monday evening - any updates???

I have seen this image in the T&A with one of the latest articles:



seems to show the white of the terracotta showing through, obviously no orange tiling removed as yet though.

From an article by the T&A trying to put the boot in a little further:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.u...risk_theatres/

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

I was watching the Park at The Heart Look North Report and I likes this view of how the Odeon and The Alhambra fit together well and how they look individually:

Theres this image aswell which looks great:

[The Odeon Crusader]

A little bit more info on the "4th" BORG image for Dan... The image angle you suggest was more or less the same as the one to be used, but it was to be a night time scene. It also included a glass atrium between the upper section of the New Vic/Gaumont dressing room area (Quebec Street side) and the Alhambra, effectively connecting the two theatres.

A multi-story car park was/is planned for the rear land (to be accessed via the brown blocked area on the second visual on the Thornton Road elavation next to the third tower) which would have provided safe, security-policed parking for patrons of both the refurbished Odeon and Alhambra. Immediate access to the upper rear of the Odeon leading to either the building itself or the Alhambra via the connecting glass atrium.

Imagine if Yorkshire Forward sold the Odeon to Nirmal Singh and he brought together BORG and the interested developers... Bradford would have an entertainments complex that could quite easily take on the world.

Instead, we are looking forward to more offices and a hotel...

Finally, Mark Nicholson of BORG was on BCB radio this evening - here's a link to the brief telephone interview he gave about the Theatres Trust "at risk" register news today:
http://www.bcbradio.co.uk/index.php?module=podcaster&PODCASTS_MAN_OP=viewPodcast&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=881

[listerpark]

Here are a few photos I took yesterday showing the newly-exposed brickwork:

Click on the thumbnails for a larger version:

[The Odeon Crusader]

Thanks for the pics, Listerpark... One of them shows the crude creation of an office window within a space previously occupied by an exit door during the 1969 coversion works...



Here is the original "facade" at ground level as seen in 1968/69 - the revealed door space is behind the rear of the truck...



Below is how it looked behind the window in 2004 (this is a BCR photo given to BORG - you can see a "consultant" no doubt piecing together what Maud Marshall referred to as "expert views" at the time)...



It looks in great condition - the Odeon had been closed for 4 years by that point!

This is the same area as seen last year...



Completely wrecked thanks to the cut pipes two floors above - the water ingress weakened the concrete coverings on the outer wall, so that's why it had to come off!!!

The shameful neglect of Yorkshire Forward and indifference of Bradford Council should be highlighted at every opportunity.

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

I heard an interesting short argument from my friend about this.

Would you demolish the Alhambra? No, so why demolish the Odeon.

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

I heard an interesting short argument from my friend about this.

Would you demolish the Alhambra? No, so why demolish the Odeon.

I see the point, but the Odeon is falling apart at the moment so thats a big reason. Not in any way am i agreeing with it, and infact i don't. Like every other building in Bradford that has been deemed 'crap or falling apart or both' which then as a consequence has been demolished nothing has replaced them, and so we now have many holes of various sizes.

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

I see the point, but the Odeon is falling apart at the moment so thats a big reason.

Thats not a reason. There are people who can restore. So you can't use the reason of The Odeon is falling apart, so lets demolish it when it can be restored with private investment. The factor of the Odeon intorior being in a terrible state is apparantly is partly down to Yorkshire Foward who cut some pipes in the building or something like that.

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

Like every other building in Bradford that has been deemed 'crap or falling apart or both' which then as a consequence has been demolished nothing has replaced them, and so we now have many holes of various sizes.

I don't know about you, but I can only think of one example of what you said and thats Broadway and even that is not a hole anymore, just an empty space with some stick sticking out.

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

Thats not a reason. There are people who can restore. So you can't use the reason of The Odeon is falling apart, so lets demolish it when it can be restored with private investment. The factor of the Odeon intorior being in a terrible state is apparantly is partly down to Yorkshire Foward who cut some pipes in the building or something like that.

It is a reason unfortunately, when things start falling down they become unfunctional, therefore they need to be replaced, it's just a fact of life. Of course that doesn't nessacarily apply to every building, especially lovely old and sentimental buildings.. for instance the Odeon, which was the point i was trying to make...

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

I don't know about you, but I can only think of one example of what you said and thats Broadway and even that is not a hole anymore, just an empty space with some stick sticking out.

There are many, many dotted around the inner city. That big carpet warehouse (whose name has escaped me) near Tesco's and Staples was flattered and left abandoned. Theres a lot of vacant space past Forster Squ, on Valley road and such. Along with various smaller plots in and around the centre, and of course yes, The Hole that used to be Broadway... Adding to the this the numerous empty or derelict buildings in the city centre.

Land value in the city is warped due to the topography of the land it sits upon. When a settlement grows on flat/flatish land it has a central CBD, with inner suburbs and outer suburbs following the concentric circle model and thus leading to a more organised city. This and the exaccerbation by economic downturn (causing what assets Bradford used to have to be neglected or dissapear completely) AND the proximity of a larger, more prosperous city I.e Leeds is a seriously bad thing mixed together. What the city needs is a focal point which it can use as a platform for other things, such as the "Park at the Heart" (*shudders at that incredibly corny name*) or a big nice shopping centre or some sort of film orientated area.

Anyway, i don't want to go off topic so what i want to reply to that is that i'm not saying every neglected building should be destroyed. Infact many shouldn't, but in the eyes of many developers it is. Thats all im saying... Don't take my head off!

[The Odeon Crusader]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

... but the Odeon is falling apart at the moment

Yorkshire Boy, I'm very interested in establishing the source of your statement quoted above. Perhaps you read it in the T&A? Perhaps you heard it spill out of the lying mouth of Maud Marshall? Is it your own observation?

Whatever the source - it is totally wrong!!! Here is an conclusion extract from the structural survey commisioned by Yorkshire Forward and Langtree Artisan last year:



The tower structural issues relate to the steel framework at the very top of them - hardly means the rest of the building is "falling apart"!

The spin and lies of the regeneration chiefs have a lot to answer for...

The full structural survey can be downloaded via the Bradford planners website

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by The Odeon Crusader

The tower structural issues relate to the steel framework at the very top of them - hardly means the rest of the building is "falling apart"!

Maybe not "falling apart" then, but excessively neglected could be a good phrase to use. Theres even a tree growing on the roof nearest the side facing quebec street. Even though I said "falling down" i never said it couldn't be restored did i? Don't bite my head off!

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by The Odeon Crusader

A little bit more info on the "4th" BORG image for Dan... The image angle you suggest was more or less the same as the one to be used, but it was to be a night time scene. It also included a glass atrium between the upper section of the New Vic/Gaumont dressing room area (Quebec Street side) and the Alhambra, effectively connecting the two theatres.

A multi-story car park was/is planned for the rear land (to be accessed via the brown blocked area on the second visual on the Thornton Road elavation next to the third tower) which would have provided safe, security-policed parking for patrons of both the refurbished Odeon and Alhambra. Immediate access to the upper rear of the Odeon leading to either the building itself or the Alhambra via the connecting glass atrium.

Imagine if Yorkshire Forward sold the Odeon to Nirmal Singh and he brought together BORG and the interested developers... Bradford would have an entertainments complex that could quite easily take on the world.

Instead, we are looking forward to more offices and a hotel...

Finally, Mark Nicholson of BORG was on BCB radio this evening - here's a link to the brief telephone interview he gave about the Theatres Trust "at risk" register news today:
http://www.bcbradio.co.uk/index.php?module=podcaster&PODCASTS_MAN_OP=viewPodcast&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=881

Cheers for some of the details. The atrium sounds an interesting plan and could open the area up to outdoor/indoor cafe space between the two buildings. Though I was wondering how BORG would address the change in building styles after the start of Quebec Street on the Great Horton Road side. There's quite a stark change and there are many functional but very much back end extensions (or what look like them) sort of tagged on the end here. I actually like the brick that is used on this section more than the one used on the main facade, but it isn't all too well organised. I was also wondering how Quebec Street's narrow alleyway would be considered, and how this could be integrated or altered to fit the scheme.

In regards to car parking would BORG consider the option of an underground car park, something I find ought to be included much more in projects for space saving, though I can understand if the prospect is expensive. Just wondering how much space a multi-storey car park would take up at the end, and wonder if the cars would be entering on the Thornton Road where the orange 'cladding' was on the render, would there be much point in a third tower stuck on the end of all this traffic entering the building? Also curious if there would be any further ground floor uses along the back of the building on Quebec Street such as further cafe's restaurants or bars that might link in with the current clubs in town via Quebec Street, possibly with refurbishment of the opposite buildings for similar uses extending the club zone. And finally, would the atrium then involve walkways across to the Alhambra, or would it just be the access via footfall? Just wondering how substantial and what kind of a structure it would be.


Nice to hear Mark defending the Odeon once more.

Originally Posted by listerpark

Here are a few photos I took yesterday showing the newly-exposed brickwork:

Click on the thumbnails for a larger version:

Thanks for these photos Lister Park. Walked past the site yesterday and noticed they'd only done half of the concrete on the front, leaving the other side still with the concrete cladding as well as the orange tiling. They hadn't done a very good job either, lots of concrete left on the exterior, possibly with some damage to the terracotta blocks that I hope is just bits of concrete left stuck on.

Also a shame to see from The Odeon Crusader's photos how good those doorways were before incurring the damage that seems to be there now. Not beyond fixing though of course.

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

Maybe not "falling apart" then, but excessively neglected could be a good phrase to use. Theres even a tree growing on the roof nearest the side facing quebec street. Even though I said "falling down" i never said it couldn't be restored did i? Don't bite my head off!

Though as The Odeon Crusader posted, especially with those two photos of the office at the front four years apart, the water damage has been awful, admittedly, but this is because despite lots of attention being brought to this problem, Yorkshire Forward, the owners of the building, still haven't mended the broken water pipes towards the front of the building. And because of this they waste an endless amount of money on maintenance, whilst maybe trying to further the idea that the building is beyond repair by not attending to it. But aside from that as posted, there's some problem with the steel work in the towers but aside from that it seems mostly structurally sound. Not that there wouldn't be a lot of work to do, but then there always is.

[The Odeon Crusader]

Not biting your head off, buddy!

Just getting hacked off at the ridiculous suggestions that the building is shagged and ready to fall down, as perpetuated by BCR and Yorkshire Forward! People tend to believe what they read in the T&A.

I've been in the Odeon 7 times between 2006 and 2008 - apart from the water damaged areas, it's in great condition and all exterior issues are merely cosmetic...

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

That big carpet warehouse (whose name has escaped me) near Tesco's and Staples was flattered and left abandoned.

The big carpet warehouse was flattered and replaced with two retail units that have been taken up by PC World and Staples.

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

The big carpet warehouse was flattered and replaced with two retail units that have been taken up by PC World and Staples.

No. The opposite side of the car park was a huge carpet warehouse. Theres now nothing there.

[The Odeon Crusader]

Dan, I will see what draft graphics exist to hopefully explain more about the atrium concept etc. I'm sure I have some rough sketches somewhere here.

For now, a bit more on the newly exposed exit door...

Went down today to see it for myself and took some pics. I'm a little concerned at how exposed this is and I dread to think how Yorkshire Forward's heavy-handed tactics will come into play when they ask the contractors to cover it over. I hope it will not damage the terracotta!

I took this picture below on Monday night before the concrete coverings of that area were later removed and you can see that there were thermolite blocks packing out the side of the inserted window...



However, I think the contractors bit off more than they could chew (or hacked off more than they wanted) as the week went by and brought into view the original exit door!



I'm intrigued by some of the ancient graffitti that survives within the doorwell... remember this was all covered over in the summer of 1969!!!



Here is a close up of both sections - is that a 1959 or 1969 when "ALLY" (or was it Wally) was there and why did someone attempt to make the date 1989? And who was this "Rigglearse" described as "a big fat pro", with a smokin' spliff sketched below the slander?



Anyway... there are (thankfully) two surviving doorways to allow reference for any restoration - here's one of them:



Incidently, Shaws Of Darwen were the company who supplied the terracotta for the original New Victoria and they are still in business, even offering a restoration work service. Here's their website: http://www.shawsofdarwen.com/Terracotta/index.html

It's all good stuff!

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

The ODEON!!!!:







So as working at Bradford Regeneration and in they're meeting they said the New Victoria Place was currently having serious problems.

[Yorkshire Boy]

Originally Posted by *-City Of Bradford-*

So as working at Bradford Regeneration and in they're meeting they said the New Victoria Place was currently having serious problems.

Serious problems? Please elaborate?

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire Boy

Serious problems? Please elaborate?

Well you have the obvious ones like the Danger of the Odeon demolishion may not be approved by Bradford Council.

And then the company is experienced a slight problems, partly because of the economic downtown, I've been told I'm not allowed to say much more.