ITALY - Stadium and Arena Development News

[JimB]

Originally Posted by cellete

I think Juve is right doing that; the atmosphere in Delle Alpi is cold even in some matches in Champions.

I don't think Juve are doing the right thing at all.

Without doubt, they cannot stay at stadio delle alpi as things stand. A club like Juve should be getting more than the pitiful average 25,000 attendance they have at the moment (they are supposed to be the best supported club in Italy, after all, and a smaller club like Manchester City had significantly higher gates than that, even when in English football's third division a few years ago). But the option Juve have chosen - to build a reduced capacity stadium within the current stadium - is stupid beyond belief.

One of the main objections to stadio delle alpi is its location. If they go ahead with current plans, nothing will have been done to address that particular objection. Furthermore, if Juve had decided instead to build a new 60,000+ stadium more centrally, I'm sure that they could sell out as often as not - meaning far more revenue generating potential. What with their sizeable turnover, the Agnelli millions and almost certain financial assistance from local government, it's not as if they would lack the funds for such a project.

[MoreOrLess]

I'd guess someone is probabley covering themselves politcally with the delle alpi renovation, its less of an admission of a mistake with the original devolpment than if the club had totally moved out. Maybe the club is getting additional assistance with it in return?

Juve havent ever been the best supported club in italy though, tradisionally their behind both Milan and Rome clubs and Napoli. They've only averaged over 50,000 a season once in their history and are normally closer to 35-40,000.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by MoreOrLess

Juve havent ever been the best supported club in italy though, tradisionally their behind both Milan and Rome clubs and Napoli. They've only averaged over 50,000 a season once in their history and are normally closer to 35-40,000.

In terms of attendances, they're not the best supported club but, in terms of numbers of supporters in Italy, they are the best supported club - the Man Utd of Italy, with fans all over the country. Not surprising given that, domestically, they are the most successful club.

I'd agree, incidentally, that the decision to go ahead with this awful compromise at stadio delle alpi is little more than a face saving exercise.

[dreaad]

the Delle Alpi stadium will be partially rebuild without the athletics track and the view will be as good as the english stadium (even else the worst is the rome stadium for the view).
Works will start after finishing the current league.

the capacity will be dropped to about 41.000 people but the design is fantastic.

some renderings:


now the best stadium in italy is san siro (i love it!!)

[adidas]

Nice renderings

[Giorgio]

WOW That design is Awesome!! Go italy!

[MoreOrLess]

Originally Posted by JimB

In terms of attendances, they're not the best supported club but, in terms of numbers of supporters in Italy, they are the best supported club - the Man Utd of Italy, with fans all over the country. Not surprising given that, domestically, they are the most successful club.

I'd agree, incidentally, that the decision to go ahead with this awful compromise at stadio delle alpi is little more than a face saving exercise.

Man Utd have had the best attendaces in England pretty much every season for the last 35 years though, Juve have never been anywhere near that so I don't see how they can claim to be the best supported team(most liked maybe).

If someone elses face is being saved then as I said I wouldnt be supprized if Juve have been given some financial incentive to stay and redevolp rather than move so it maybe worth their while.

[Carletto]

Juventus has one of the worst attendances in Italy, expecially if you take a look at the season tickets. It's true it has more fans throughout the country, but has not so many in its hometown, Turin, where the other team (Torino Calcio) has by far more supporters, even if they are doing very badly since many years. Juve has many supporters from Southern Italy, many of them work for FIAT in Turin and in other towns as well. So a 40k stadium is more than enough for the black-white team.

Talking about AC Milan the situation is much different, they have supporters and San Siro is often full or almost full, the problem is that you need binoculars to see the players from the cheapest places of the stadium. They said that Schalke 04 stadium in Gelsenkirchen is the best one and they would like to have something similar; and they are right, the German stadium is fantastic, much better than any other stadium in Italy. But the big problem here is that the stadium usually are owned by the city government, and not by the team. And they can use it just for the football matches, no other things. While a private owned stadium by only 1 team could be used for many other purpouses, like in the UK or in Germany. The other big problem is that attendance is getting lower and lower, that's due to high prices (few chaep seats), a lot of football on TV for much less, boring matches (only the usual 3 teams can fight for the "scudetto"), violence, corruption and so on... people are tired, even if we all like football.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by Carletto

It's true it has more fans throughout the country, but has not so many in its hometown, Turin.

Thanks for confirming what I thought.

They said that Schalke 04 stadium in Gelsenkirchen is the best one and they would like to have something similar; and they are right, the German stadium is fantastic, much better than any other stadium in Italy.

It's a good stadium and the Schalke fans are very passionate but (having admittedly only ever seen it on TV and in pictures), the stadium seems a bit soulless and lacking in character.

The other big problem is that attendance is getting lower and lower, that's due to high prices (few chaep seats), a lot of football on TV for much less.

I'm not sure that the price of tickets is the big problem. The majority of tickets for Serie A games are much cheaper than for games in the English Premiership. Only the most expensive tickets are on a par with similar tickets in England. However, I think you're right to say that TV exposure is a major problem. Isn't every game for every club now televised live?

[gruber]

Galliani is a stupid asshole.

all that interview about San Siro is pure propaganda.
Milan and Inter want buy San Siro stadium by the municiaplity of Milano that is the owner of the field from the 40's.
San Siro is a perfect stadium to watch football match, without trak field, with 85.700 all seat places, skybox and an excellent view also on the third level at more than 50 meters over the ground.
The Municipality have a estimate of the price from Merryl Linch and others that is around 100 Millions of Euro.
the 2 teams want pay less than an half part.

so that asshole of Galliani that is at the same time President of Milan and President of the Lega Serie A (we like that conflictual positions...Berlusconi...) spoke bad about all the stadiums to have a better price for S.Siro.

1 months ago also the President of Inter, Massimo Moratti, wrote to newspapars that Inter want a new stadium, perhaps outside Milano.
a double offensive against the Municipality: dont' buy S.Siro and built the new stadium outside the borderline of Milano, in the Metro Area (the Municipality will lost an enormous amount in taxes).

so...now is the moment of Galliani, on the next week of Moratti...

the important thing is that the 2 wankers talks, and the Municipality ...works to change in better the stadium.

btw.
about the Race Track.
only 2 stadium for Italia 1990 were built with the trakcs: Bari and Torino.
all the rest have the race track also before the renovation of the 90.


stadiums are empty (not all...S.Siro is full all the season, normlly) cause there are matches on tv at 4 Euro.
'cause stadiums are full of stupid idiots (the Ultras fans), and also cause some, few, stadiums are very worst to see football (Torino, Napoli, Roma, Bari).

another big problems of Italian Serie A, is that teams of some big cities are in 2° or 3° division..or less!
Torino (1.7 M in Metro Area) = SERIE B
Genoa (1 M) = SERIE C1
Napoli (4 M) = SERIE C1
Catania (1 M) = SERIE B
Bari (0.8 M) = SERIE B
Taranto (0.4) = serie????????????
and the same thing with cities with 300.000 or more as Trieste, Brescia, Bergamo...

[Falcon83]

^yes, there's SKY calcio, and you can see the matches on the internet with rossoalice for few euros.

[ManchesterISwonderful]

Originally Posted by MoreOrLess

Man Utd have had the best attendaces in England pretty much every season for the last 35 years though, Juve have never been anywhere near that so I don't see how they can claim to be the best supported team(most liked maybe).

If someone elses face is being saved then as I said I wouldnt be supprized if Juve have been given some financial incentive to stay and redevolp rather than move so it maybe worth their while.

In fact best for the last 50 years, give or take three or four seasons. I would say since Busby took over. But we had our biggest attendances just after the war, a few over 80,000.

As for Juve. They've got a huge fanbase, but from what I've heard they're spread out all over the country.

[gruber]

Juve have the most part of its fans in the South Italy, where apart Napoli, there were never good teams in the past 100 years.
In the city of Torino the fans of the Toro as probably more numerous than the ones of Juve, and in the Region of Torino, the Piedmont, the fans of Torino are highest than the one of Juve.
Another big number of Juve Fan are located in the Milano Metro Area, specially in the northern region called Brianza (around Monza) where the most part of population is Juve supporters.

some years ago Juve played some home matches of UEFA cup (Semifinal, Final and maybe also the QF) at San Siro! and they had an attendance of 80.000 people.

when there were troubles in Juve stadium, and the field were closed for 1 or more games, Juve normally played in South Italy and not close to Torino.
they have more supporter outside thery home ground.

the last official census of football fans in Italy


2001

Juventus 11.040.000 37%
Inter 6.728.000 23%
Milan 5.818.000 20%
Roma 2.886.000 10%
Lazio 2.070.000 7%

Fonte: AC Nielsen, Marzo 2001

1999
%
Juventus 32
Milan 16
Inter 15
Napoli 7
Roma 5
Lazio 4
Fiorentina 4
Torino 2
Bologna 2
Sampdoria 1
Cagliari 1
other taems 11

Fonte: Indagine Doxa 1999

and this is a European statistical research.
Juventus win cause in Europe there are millions of south italian emigrates, and south Italians are all fan of Juventus or Napoli.


Juventus
Fans in Italy 11.040.000
Fans in Europe 7.138.100
Total 18.178.100

Real Madrid
5.206.000
9.875.000
15.081.000

Manchester Utd.
4.366.000
9.051.000
13.417.000

Barcellona
4.836.000
6.993.000
10.829.300

Milan
4.572.000
4.560.000
9.132.500

Fonte: Sport+Markt 2003

[MoreOrLess]

Depends what you class as "fans/supporters" I spose is it those who claim to like/follow a team or those that go to the actual games? since where talking about the size of the stadium I think the latter is the more relevant number, so short of moving to that regoin of Milan or southern Italy I don't see Juve filling a 60,000 seat stadium often.

As for the San Siro I think you just have to accept that in an all seater stadium that size the seats at the very back are not going to have an amazing view, the AufSchalke Arena in comparason has over 30,000 fewer seats.

[gruber]

are all simple questions: "which team do you like?"
it's the ipotetical number of fans.
not the ones that go to see the matches at stadium!

about stadium.
the difference with normal English stadium is that in Italy we dont' have single gigantic stands.
but more levels. one over the others.
so in San Siro the view from the second level is PERFECT, and the view from the Third Level is identical of the last seats of Anfield on the top of the stands!
the Third Level of San Siro is veru close to the vertical limit, and there is abetter view there than in ALL the stadiums with race tracks and also in some single gigantic stands as in Usa and England.
The old Webley was terrible to see a football match, as the Coliseum in LA is far away from the ground! the single stand is the problem!

[andysimo123]

In most cases a fan is classed as a member of the club. Not always through. I know that alot of fan figures in the English leagues go of the number of members.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by ManchesterISwonderful

In fact best for the last 50 years, give or take three or four seasons. I would say since Busby took over.

Not actually true. Moreorless was right.

Between 1955 and 1972, Tottenham, Everton and Liverpool (three times each) and Chelsea (once) all topped the league average attendance for the season. And in a fair number of those seasons Utd finished 3rd, 4th, 5th and even 7th in the list. So although, in that period, Man Utd topped the averages seven times, it wasn't until 33 years ago that they became consistently the best supported team.

[gruber]

i read that the Man Utd became the most supported team of England also for the tragedy of Munchen.
The same happened in Italy in the 50's for the Torino when the plane crashed on the Superga Church on the 1949, and many young people becam fan of Torino.

but after 15 years, more or less, it's ended. and today is the 8th or 9th team in Italy as number of fan.

how Man Utd have so many fans, also in the 70's and 80's when it won nothing?!

[JimB]

Originally Posted by gruber

Juventus
Fans in Italy 11.040.000
Fans in Europe 7.138.100
Total 18.178.100

Real Madrid
5.206.000
9.875.000
15.081.000

Manchester Utd.
4.366.000
9.051.000
13.417.000

Barcellona
4.836.000
6.993.000
10.829.300

Milan
4.572.000
4.560.000
9.132.500

Fonte: Sport+Markt 2003

Even if accurate, it's a fairly meaningless statistic since that sort of "support" only matters if they actually contribute to the club in some way. Man Utd and Real Madrid (who both have much greater far eastern support than Juve and, in the case of Madrid, much greater support in South America) seem to be the only clubs in that list who can translate this sort of support significantly into commercial gain.

Besides, such statistics are notoriously fickle. They are calculated from a small sample of surveyed fans. I saw a report recently which said that Chelsea's support in Europe had grown by something like four million in Europe over the past twelve months and that Man Utd's had collapsed by two or three million. That tells me that either these so called supporters were not worth having in the first place (they'll jump from team to team, depending on who's doing well) or that the statisticians were working with very poor data. Either way, their findings are not to be trusted by football clubs as a true indicator of support.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by gruber

i read that the Man Utd became the most supported team of England also for the tragedy of Munchen.
The same happened in Italy in the 50's for the Torino when the plane crashed on the Superga Church on the 1949, and many young people becam fan of Torino.

but after 15 years, more or less, it's ended. and today is the 8th or 9th team in Italy as number of fan.

how Man Utd have so many fans, also in the 70's and 80's when it won nothing?!

They won a lot of support because of the Busby babes and then, of course, because of the tragic plane crash. But the support grew because of the next great team that Busby put together - particularly George Best, Bobby Charlton and Dennis Law. Then, of course, they became the first English club to win the European Cup. Even in their wilderness years in the 70's and 80's, they still won the FA Cup often enough to carry on attracting fans.