ITALY - Stadium and Arena Development News

[gruber]

Real Madrid is the new team leader in the marketing in the 2005 with 275,66 millions of Euro (+17%).
the Man Utd that was first for more than 12 years is now second with 249 millions of Euro (it lost the 50% in the last 6 MONTHS!!)
Juventus is 3th of 4th and Milan and Inter in the top ten.

Top of table in the rich league
Real Madrid
Annual income*: £190m
Biggest earner: Commercial income from merchandise and sponsorship, worth almost £80m a year (42 per cent of income). When Florentino Perez became president of the club in 2000, this figure was lower than 10 per cent of income.
Other major revenue streams: Match-day income (mainly tickets) of £48m (26 per cent of income); television income of £44m (24 per cent); and friendlies, tours and other promotions earning £16m (eight per cent).
Wages: £98m, currently 52 per cent of income, which is forecast to fall to 47 per cent of turnover next year.
Manchester Utd
Annual income**: £169m
Biggest earner: Television income, which was by far the largest chunk of overall media income of £62.5m in the year (37 per cent of income). TV income forecast to fall £14m in the current year.
Other major revenue streams: Match-day income of £61.2m (36 per cent); commercial income of £45.3m (27 per cent).
Wages: £76.9m in the last full-year figures, equating to 45 per cent of income, which is expected to rise above 50 per cent in the next figures.
denotes year to 30 June, 2005; ** denotes year to 31 July, 2004, but little or no growth expected in year to June 2005


2004 IN POUND.

1 (1) Man Utd £171.5m
2 (4) Real Madrid £156.3m
3 (3) AC Milan £147.2m
4 (10) Chelsea £143.7m
5 (2) Juventus £142.4m
6 (7) Arsenal £115m
7 (13) Barcelona £110.1m
8 (6) Inter Milan £110.3m
9 (5) Bayern Munich £110.1m
10 (8) Liverpool £92.3m
11 (10) Newcastle £90.5m
12 (11) Roma £72m
13 (18) Celtic £69m
14 (16) Tottenham £66.3m
15 (15) Lazio £65.8m
16 (-) Man City £61.9m
17 (14) Schalke £60.5m
18 (-) Marseille £58.3m
19 (-) Rangers £57.1m
20 (-) Aston Villa £55.9m

[2005]

2004 IN POUND.

1 (1) Man Utd £171.5m
2 (4) Real Madrid £156.3m
3 (3) AC Milan £147.2m
4 (10) Chelsea £143.7m
5 (2) Juventus £142.4m
6 (7) Arsenal £115m
7 (13) Barcelona £110.1m
8 (6) Inter Milan £110.3m
9 (5) Bayern Munich £110.1m
10 (8) Liverpool £92.3m
11 (10) Newcastle £90.5m
12 (11) Roma £72m
13 (18) Celtic £69m
14 (16) Tottenham £66.3m
15 (15) Lazio £65.8m
16 (-) Man City £61.9m
17 (14) Schalke £60.5m
18 (-) Marseille £58.3m
19 (-) Rangers £57.1m
20 (-) Aston Villa £55.9m

Does make you think were Tottenham will be this year Turover £70.6m.

[ManchesterISwonderful]

Originally Posted by gruber

i read that the Man Utd became the most supported team of England also for the tragedy of Munchen.
The same happened in Italy in the 50's for the Torino when the plane crashed on the Superga Church on the 1949, and many young people becam fan of Torino.

but after 15 years, more or less, it's ended. and today is the 8th or 9th team in Italy as number of fan.

how Man Utd have so many fans, also in the 70's and 80's when it won nothing?!

Loyalty. Even when we were relagated, we attracted the biggest crowds in England.......and we also averaged more than anyone that season. Imagine, 60,000 in the second. Amazing eh? Even the season before when were relagated we had the best attendances in the country.

But yeah it was the Busby Babes that changed everything. I think the 58 team is our best ever, great shame we never saw them blossom.

Funnily enough our highest gates have come against Non League teams. Over 80,000 went to see Bradford Park Avenue and Yeovil Town just after the war. Our other huge attendance(80k) was against Arsenal.

[ManchesterISwonderful]

Originally Posted by JimB

Not actually true. Moreorless was right.

Between 1955 and 1972, Tottenham, Everton and Liverpool (three times each) and Chelsea (once) all topped the league average attendance for the season. And in a fair number of those seasons Utd finished 3rd, 4th, 5th and even 7th in the list. So although, in that period, Man Utd topped the averages seven times, it wasn't until 33 years ago that they became consistently the best supported team.

Still not bad though. We've had the best attendance bar ten times over the last 50 years.

So where do you reckon you'll finish this season? Spurs are looking good, from what I've seen.

[MoreOrLess]

Originally Posted by gruber

Real Madrid is the new team leader in the marketing in the 2005 with 275,66 millions of Euro (+17%).
the Man Utd that was first for more than 12 years is now second with 249 millions of Euro (it lost the 50% in the last 6 MONTHS!!)
Juventus is 3th of 4th and Milan and Inter in the top ten.

Top of table in the rich league
Real Madrid
Annual income*: £190m
Biggest earner: Commercial income from merchandise and sponsorship, worth almost £80m a year (42 per cent of income). When Florentino Perez became president of the club in 2000, this figure was lower than 10 per cent of income.
Other major revenue streams: Match-day income (mainly tickets) of £48m (26 per cent of income); television income of £44m (24 per cent); and friendlies, tours and other promotions earning £16m (eight per cent).
Wages: £98m, currently 52 per cent of income, which is forecast to fall to 47 per cent of turnover next year.
Manchester Utd
Annual income**: £169m
Biggest earner: Television income, which was by far the largest chunk of overall media income of £62.5m in the year (37 per cent of income). TV income forecast to fall £14m in the current year.
Other major revenue streams: Match-day income of £61.2m (36 per cent); commercial income of £45.3m (27 per cent).
Wages: £76.9m in the last full-year figures, equating to 45 per cent of income, which is expected to rise above 50 per cent in the next figures.
denotes year to 30 June, 2005; ** denotes year to 31 July, 2004, but little or no growth expected in year to June 2005

Man Utd's income looks the more stable to me as comerical income(sponsorship, shirts etc) is by far the most fickle souce IMHO and in Real's case its built on spending massive amounts on well known Galatico's. As we've seen match day sales on the other hand are the most stable since they come from your most loyal supporters(provided glazer doesnt do something really stupid) and in Man Utd's case are likely to rise next season when the old trafford extension opens. I'd guess Man Utd would be well ahead if they sold their TV rights solo in the UK as Real do in Spain aswell.

[Zorba]

The Delle Alpi stadium in Turin was one of the new venues built for the World Cup but will be demolished next year to make way for a new venue for Juventus which will have a reduced capacity and no running track.

It is going to be hard for me to imagine Italian football without Delle Alpi.



How long will it take to build the new satdium?

[JimB]

Originally Posted by ManchesterISwonderful

Still not bad though. We've had the best attendance bar ten times over the last 50 years.

So where do you reckon you'll finish this season? Spurs are looking good, from what I've seen.

Yep. No doubt that, for all the flak thrown at them, Man Utd fans' loyalty could never be questioned - unlike fans of that Russian financed upstart club. And Man Utd also has one of the best travelling supports in the country. Lots of original songs. In fact, I know a S African fella by the name of Charlie who used to be one of the main writers of Utd's extensive song list.

Spurs? We're doing okay. Not playing great but still picking up points. Think we'll finish somewhere between 4th-7th. And, with the exciting young players at the club, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long while.

Sadly, though, I can see Abramovich's billions buying every trophy in sight for the next decade and more.

[ASupertall4SD]

the article i read made it sound as if the AC Milan rep brought the idea to the surface but that both AC and INter were toying with the idea of a new stadium each in Milan. That would be crazy, and cool.

[ManchesterISwonderful]

Originally Posted by JimB

Yep. No doubt that, for all the flak thrown at them, Man Utd fans' loyalty could never be questioned - unlike fans of that Russian financed upstart club. And Man Utd also has one of the best travelling supports in the country. Lots of original songs. In fact, I know a S African fella by the name of Charlie who used to be one of the main writers of Utd's extensive song list.

Spurs? We're doing okay. Not playing great but still picking up points. Think we'll finish somewhere between 4th-7th. And, with the exciting young players at the club, the future is looking brighter than it has for a long while.

Sadly, though, I can see Abramovich's billions buying every trophy in sight for the next decade and more.

Glad you noticed our away support. It's brilliant. Much better than our home support.

I think you've bought some quality players. Anything upto 4th is a possibility.

Chelsea have virtually won the league, although we have to play them at Old Trafford in a couple of weeks. . . but if I'm honest, we're fighting for second spot. And yeah, they've pretty much got the title in the bag for the next few seasons. Until the Ruski gets bored. . .that is.

[Zizu]

Oh, come on. Ten matches played and everybody congratulates Chelsea! The season is long and many things can happen.(injuries...)
Just have a look at the past CL winners. All underdogs!
So, cheer up. Day's form always beats class and quality. And money doesn't win trophys.

[MoreOrLess]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Oh, come on. Ten matches played and everybody congratulates Chelsea! The season is long and many things can happen.(injuries...)
Just have a look at the past CL winners. All underdogs!
So, cheer up. Day's form always beats class and quality. And money doesn't win trophys.

Chelsea's biggest advanatge in the league is the depth of their squad so I barring really terrible luck I can't see injuries hurting their season alot, Man Utd and Arsenal have been unluckier already this season in that reguard aswell. In cups I agree they are probabley not going to sweep all before them since luck plays a larger factor and performance on the day is more important than consistency.

Its a good thing the prem got that 4th champs league spot(although Everton failing to get though took a bit of shine off it) or their would be very little for clubs like Spur's to aim for anymore.

[gruber]

today there was a long article on the Corriere delle Sera, an entire apge, about the San Siro problem.
yesterday evening, offivialy, both teams asked to the Municipality to sold the stadium at Euro....ZERO, ZERO.

in any other cas they will built 2 new stadiums.
Milan find the area for the new stadium in Milano, in the Santa Giulia district ( an area of 1.2 Millions of square meters under renovation with a project of Norman Foster).
Inter find are or in the southern municipalty of Rozzano, or in the northern one of Sesto San Giovanni (another gigantic area of more than 1.5 Millions of square meters under renovation by Renzo Piano). both municiaplities are in the closest Metro Area. both team look at stadiums of 60-65.000 all seats, with bars, restaurants, swimming poll, hotel...
Milan loof to the ghelsenkirchen arena, Inter to the new Da Luz in Lisbon.


in my opinion, Municipality will sell San Siro in the next weeks to the both teams at a great price for there...

[antigr12]

if milan ac and inter leave ss , then juve should come and they would have 85-90 k average attendance , beyond the current 60 k of both milano clubs .

[JimB]

Originally Posted by gruber

in my opinion, Municipality will sell San Siro in the next weeks to the both teams at a great price for there...

The "Municipality" should call Inter's and Milan's bluff. Why give the stadium away for nothing? In the unlikely event that both Inter and Milan follow through with their threats, the "Municipality" will still own the real estate upon which the stadium stands. That would be worth something at least.

Why should Inter and Milan - two of the richest clubs in world football - take ownership of one of the greatest stadiums in world football without paying any money for it, especially since they have tacitly admitted hat they have plenty of funds to build two completely new stadiums.

Sheer greed on their part.

[Melchisedeck]

During the last restructuring of Stadium, AC MILAN and FC INTER have invested 50 millions $ in the San Siro Stadium.

This is a Result:
SkyBox












Executive Room





OSPITALITY

[gruber]

Originally Posted by JimB

The "Municipality" should call Inter's and Milan's bluff. Why give the stadium away for nothing? In the unlikely event that both Inter and Milan follow through with their threats, the "Municipality" will still own the real estate upon which the stadium stands. That would be worth something at least.

Why should Inter and Milan - two of the richest clubs in world football - take ownership of one of the greatest stadiums in world football without paying any money for it, especially since they have tacitly admitted hat they have plenty of funds to build two completely new stadiums.

Sheer greed on their part.

as Melchisedek wrote, in the last 3 years the 2 teams payed 50 millions of euro for renovation.
for the next 2 years it will pay other 50/60 millions for other renovation for the security standards.
so, they don't wnat pay other money for a stadiums...that is not thery property!

it is not good pay 100 millions of euro in few years for a thing that is not your!

[JimB]

Originally Posted by gruber

as Melchisedek wrote, in the last 3 years the 2 teams payed 50 millions of euro for renovation.
for the next 2 years it will pay other 50/60 millions for other renovation for the security standards.
so, they don't wnat pay other money for a stadiums...that is not thery property!

it is not good pay 100 millions of euro in few years for a thing that is not your!

But still.....that would make Milan's and Inter's combined contribution to the San Siro €100 million. Individually, they would only have paid €50 million each. To build a brand new 85,000 seat stadium would cost more than €300 million - €150 million each. Or if they both built separate stadiums with a capacity of 65,000, it would cost them at least €200 million each.

And that's a conservative estimate.

All I'm saying is that the "Municipality" shouldn't back down in the face of threats by Inter and Milan. Why should they give away an asset for free?

[gruber]

i'm agree with you...also cause i live in Milano, i pay taxes here, and i'm not happy if the stadium will be gifted to the 2 teams...cause all people that live in Milano...will lost money!
and San Siro is one of the 5, 6 most famous, important and historical stadiums of the whole world.

today there is an interview to Oliver Bierhoff, formerly player of Milan and other italian teams, about that problems.
and he told that is completely crazy who want demolished San Siro, cause all the players of the world have the dream to play in, as in other few stadiums, as Maracana, Camp Nou, Bernabeu, Old Trafford...

the big problem is that the 2 teams have any problems of money, here in Italy, cause Berlusconi and Moratti, the 2 owner have money for the next 15 generation, but have less money than foreigner team, as Madrid, Man Utd, Barcelona...
they have less money for many reasons: the stadium is not thery property, in Italy there is a big problem about merchandising, specially in central and south Italy, were all the merchandising is not original, have big problem with the taxes that are the dobule than the ones in France and Spain, have some problem with TV money...

so they want have the stadium as a gift from the city council!

btw, to do a real big renovation of San Siro they will play more than 100/150 millions of euro.
the 100 millions that they will pay in the nest 2 years will be only for security outside the stadium, with a completely renovation of the large square, the new dozens of electronic doors....
and finally in Italy, today is still forbidden to have a restaruants or a bar INSIDE the stadium.

San Siro is used only for football matches more or less 60 per year and not for more than 5/6 concerts. all that in 365 days in a year.

unfortunally in Italy the syndrome of the Not In My BackYard is very popular and diffused, so people of the neighborhood of San Siro don't want more concerts, sport event on other in the stadium
some years ago it was used as discothewue during the night. but after the first weeks, it was closed.
S.Siro is in a midlle of a big popular district, with only residential buildings and villas.

the 2 ipotetical new stadiums should be built in the suburbs, in parks or not residential area.

[ManchesterISwonderful]

I love the San Siro. It definately needs a make over though. Starting with the seats. But it's a fantastic stadium, would be a shame if the Milan clubs moved on.

[JimB]

According to the rich list posted earlier in this thread, Milan have the 3rd highest turnover of any club in the world and Inter have the 8th highest turnover. So while they may not be Manchester Utd or Real Madrid, they're still doing very well financially. And, as you say, it's not as if the owners of Milan or Inter are lacking financial muscle.

60 football matches a year and 5/6 concerts is, by English standards, an incredibly efficient use of the stadium. For instance, my team is Tottenham. Sadly, we haven't qualified for Europe too often over the past fifteen years and play only 19 Premiership games and a handful of cup games at home every season. Add to that maybe one pre season friendly (but no concerts) and the stadium is used probably only 25 times a year.

As you say, the San Siro is in the middle of a popular residential district. Consequently, the real estate has significant value. If Inter and Milan were to follow through on their threat to leave, then the "Municipality" would be able to make a considerable profit on redevelopment of the site. Therefore, there is little or no incentive for them to cave in to Inter's and Milan's demands.

I suspect that Inter and Milan are just posturing and have no intention whatsoever of leaving the San Siro. As you say, it is a world renowned stadium; a great stadium. And the alternatives would be far more expensive for either club. So they are just trying to strengthen their bargaining position. And, most likely, a compromise position will eventually be reached. Inter and Milan will have to pay to buy the San Siro. But they won't have to pay anything like the full market value.