ITALY - Stadium and Arena Development News

[gruber]

60 matches with 2 teams, both play in Europe, both normally play also at minimum also to QF-SF of Italy Cup and 38 matches of championship.
but just 10, 15 years ago there were also more than 15/20 concerts during the spring and summer season.
today, for a law of the council there is maximum number of concerts in S.Siro for each years. (i don't rimember if 5 or 6. One of the concerts of the LIVE 8 of the past summer should be played in San Siro, and not in Roma. but the Council didn't want another one concert).

San Siro is in a middle of the most richest neighborhood of Milano, a district that was built from the 30's around the different stadiums.
in the middle of the neighborhood there is gigantic square, called Piazza degli Sport, where there are 2 hippodromes, the San Siro Stadium, other 2 horse race tracks, and there was just to the mid 80's the Palazzo dello Sport, a mulitsport arena that in the 70' and 80's was the European biggest, with more than 20.000 places for the 6Days-bycicle race and 18.000 for Basket, volley, boxe...it collappsed in the 85 for 1 meters and half of snow.
all that gigantic area have a "building destination" that is can be ONLY for sports stadiums. and any other.
so that big area with an ipotetical very high value is not "good" to built residential homes or financial skyscrapers.

it sure that the Council can change the destination of the area, but is a very long way and it's very difficult.
Milano is very small as square kilometers, and with a very high density.
tthe green areas are few and for the most part in the suburbs, where there are gigantic park.
but in the inner city, where live 1.2 Millions of people there are vry few green areas and also large square.
one of that is San Siro district.
so...also if someone one day will decide to demolish S.Siro, is very hard to build something that will not a stadium or similar.

for the same reason, the 2 teams cannot build restaurant, bar, hotel and other stuffs outside the stadium in the big square.
so, i think that they think:
we cannot have in S.Siro the same opportunity that we should have with a new stadium (a stadium open 365 days, with bars, museum, shops as in England or Germnay or USA), so we want the stadium at zero euro. in any other case we'll go outside Milano to built 2 new modern stadiums.
in both option they will pay 100 millions at minimum!
for the works about security in S.Siro, other millions for other renovation and other to buy it from the City.
but if they'll go outside in new stadium, they will built as they want, and they will be the single owner.
not one of the 2!

[FCB_Flo]

We had nearly the same discussion in munich.
Bayern Munich planed to build a stadium for their own outside the city.
In Germany you can plan everything to build, but actually you're not allowed to build everything or everywhere
If some authorities don't want that, than you got a problem

I guess they also underestimate the costs to build an stadium. The costs for the stadium are the one thing. But you must also build the infrastructure for mass transportation and stuff. And i don't think that the city of Milano wants to pay the costs twice (for AC and Inter).

I think it's just a bluff. AC and Inter will buy to stadium for more than Zero and less than the actual value.

Originally Posted by gruber

the big problem is that the 2 teams have any problems of money, here in Italy, cause Berlusconi and Moratti, the 2 owner have money for the next 15 generation, but have less money than foreigner team, as Madrid, Man Utd, Barcelona...
they have less money for many reasons: the stadium is not thery property, in Italy there is a big problem about merchandising, specially in central and south Italy, were all the merchandising is not original, have big problem with the taxes that are the dobule than the ones in France and Spain, have some problem with TV money...

As a Fan of Bayern Munich i can hardly hold back my tears

[eli]

Originally Posted by gruber

a European statistical research.
Juventus win cause in Europe there are millions of south italian emigrates, and south Italians are all fan of Juventus or Napoli.


Juventus
Fans in Italy 11.040.000
Fans in Europe 7.138.100
Total 18.178.100

Real Madrid
5.206.000
9.875.000
15.081.000

Manchester Utd.
4.366.000
9.051.000
13.417.000

Barcellona
4.836.000
6.993.000
10.829.300

Milan
4.572.000
4.560.000
9.132.500

Fonte: Sport+Markt 2003

timesonline.co.uk
September 13, 2004 By Ashling O'Connor

LURE OF UNITED DIMS AS REAL REEL IN FANS
Real Madrid have a potential worldwide fan base of half a billion people, according to research published today. Global Football Monitor, by Sport+Markt, found that 490 million were “very interested” in the Spanish club, whose stars include Zinedine Zidane, David Beckham and Ronaldo.
Previous research showed that Real were the best supported club in the key European markets of the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain, with in excess of 31 million fans more than Manchester United’s 14.2 million.
Now the global reach of the Bernabéu has eclipsed that of Old Trafford. United have 350 million potential fans, according to the survey, which involved more than 13,000 interviews in 13 markets. Even in the UK, 14 per cent of 15 to 69-year-olds were potential Real fans, just 6 per cent fewer than United

[andysimo123]

Survey's mean fuck all. United have 70 miilion paying members world wide. How many do Real have? Real are only the richest team because of United. We gave them Beckham and thats the main reason why there making so much money.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

Survey's mean fuck all. United have 70 miilion paying members world wide.

I'm sorry, but that claim cannot go unchallenged. 70 million paying members? Rubbish! Go on. Admit it. You just made it up on the spot!

[The Boy David]

Originally Posted by Melchisedeck

SkyBox

That is a terrible view!!

You cant see any of the Stadium! Or even if the ball gets kicked up high!

Not impressive

[andysimo123]

Originally Posted by JimB

I'm sorry, but that claim cannot go unchallenged. 70 million paying members? Rubbish! Go on. Admit it. You just made it up on the spot!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3693304.stm
No I didnt make that up

Mr Goodfellow said Manchester United had 75 million fans worldwide, with 23 million in Europe, 4.6 million in the Americas, 40.7 million in Asia, and a further 5.9 million in South Africa.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by andysimo123

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3693304.stm
No I didnt make that up

Ah! See now, that's very, very different.

75 million Man Utd fans worldwide, I can believe. But Man Utd doesn't, as you originally claimed, have 70 million paying members. I doubt that there are even as many as 200,000 paying members.

As Mr Goodfellow also said in that article, "Someone can be a cradle-to-grave fan, but we will not necessarily have them spending anything with us."

[Berris]

Originally Posted by gruber

1)2001
Inter 6.728.000 23%
Milan 5.818.000 20%

2)Juventus
Fans in Italy 11.040.000
Fans in Europe 7.138.100
Total 18.178.100

Real Madrid
5.206.000
9.875.000
15.081.000

Manchester Utd.
4.366.000
9.051.000
13.417.000

Barcellona
3)4.836.000
6.993.000
10.829.300

1) So... Inter has more supporters than Milan? I didn't know it! It's strange... the first team of the city is the one that has less supporters... lol

2) I'd always listened that Manchester United was the club with more supporters worldwide, followed by Real Madrid (especially thanks to the last Golden Years of the Spanish club)

3) I remember some years ago in a Spanish TV programme it was said that Barcelona had 12 million supporters only in Spain... (and I'm among them ), but, like MoreOrLess says, it depends on what you consider a "supporter"...

[fman80939]

Originally Posted by JimB

Ah! See now, that's very, very different.

75 million Man Utd fans worldwide, I can believe. But Man Utd doesn't, as you originally claimed, have 70 million paying members. I doubt that there are even as many as 200,000 paying members.

As Mr Goodfellow also said in that article, "Someone can be a cradle-to-grave fan, but we will not necessarily have them spending anything with us."

For 2004:
"During the year our membership scheme, One United, reached 193,000 members (2003 151,000 members)."

taken from the ManUtd-IR-site.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by fman80939

For 2004:
"During the year our membership scheme, One United, reached 193,000 members (2003 151,000 members)."

taken from the ManUtd-IR-site.

Why, thank you!

My guess was a pretty good one, then!

[gruber]

Originally Posted by Berris

1) So... Inter has more supporters than Milan? I didn't know it! It's strange... the first team of the city is the one that has less supporters... lol

2) I'd always listened that Manchester United was the club with more supporters worldwide, followed by Real Madrid (especially thanks to the last Golden Years of the Spanish club)

3) I remember some years ago in a Spanish TV programme it was said that Barcelona had 12 million supporters only in Spain... (and I'm among them ), but, like MoreOrLess says, it depends on what you consider a "supporter"...

That numbers haven't a great statistical composition.
but, and i was born and i live in Milano, it well know that there are more supporter of Inter than Milan, not only in the city of Milano, but also around Italy.

don't forget another thing. Inter was for more than 80 years the first and most winner team of Milano.
Milan was the second team (at high level, sure).
only from the beginning of the 90's Milan won more championship and cups than Inter.

the number of supporter is a pure games.
Juventus have the highest numebr of supporter in Italy, but a large number of them are people who don't watch football matches and don't go to stadium.
at the question "which team do you support?" a very large number of women and men not intersted in football, they voted for Juventus.
'cause is the most winner team in Italy! and the most famous.
and for that reason, Juventus have more supporters outside the city of Torino and also outside the Region of Torino, the Piedmont.
and for the most part in the South Italy, where doesn't exist strong and winner football teams! and so people supports the strongest team!

another important thing about strong team of the big cities around the world is how many teams each city have.

in Europe, except London, normally the big cities have 1 strong team and 1 mid/low level team.
Madrid have the Real and the Atletico (that in the last 30 years....),
Barcelona have the Blaugrana and the poor Espanyol.
Munchen have the Bayern and the poor Munich 1860.
Torino have the strong Juve and the poor Torino.
so it's normal have more fans of Real in Madrid and of the Blaugrana in Barcelona.
....
the only exception is Milano, that is the only European city with 2 teams that won several times the Champions and the Intercontinental cups.
so fans are more or less 50% for Milan and 50% for Inter.
(in Barcelona i think that a only small part of the people are Espanyol fans!)

another great exception are London in Europe, with 7 or 8 teams in the first 2 leagues, and with the potential number of the fans that is divided in several clubs!
the same thing happen in South America, where big cities as Rio, Sao Paulo e Baires have more than 5, 6, 7 teams all at top levels!
and the fans are divided in all that teams.

[JimB]

Originally Posted by gruber

another great exception are London in Europe, with 7 or 8 teams in the first 2 leagues, and with the potential number of the fans that is divided in several clubs!
the same thing happen in South America, where big cities as Rio, Sao Paulo e Baires have more than 5, 6, 7 teams all at top levels!
and the fans are divided in all that teams.

Yep. There are fourteen London clubs in the top four divisions in England. Currently, London has six Premiership teams:

Chelsea
Arsenal
Tottenham
West Ham
Charlton
Fulham

One division down are:

Crystal Palace
Queens Park Rangers
Millwall
Watford

Next division:

Brentford
MK Dons (formerly Wimbledon)

Next division:

Leyton Orient
Barnet

There are also many more clubs within a half hour drive of London. Of the clubs mentioned, Arsenal currently have the biggest real fan base, followed by Tottenham, with Chelsea obviously making rapid advances. West Ham are the only other genuinely big London club, in terms of fan base. Of those London clubs not currently in the Premiership, five have been in the top division within relatively recent memory: Crystal Palace, Watford, MK Dons (Wimbledon), QPR and Millwall.

And then, of course, there are Man Utd and Liverpool. Both have a large number of supporters in London.

[gruber]

Originally Posted by JimB

Yep. There are fourteen London clubs in the top four divisions in England. Currently, London has six Premiership teams:

Chelsea
Arsenal
Tottenham
West Ham
Charlton
Fulham

One division down are:

Crystal Palace
Queens Park Rangers
Millwall
Watford

Next division:

Brentford
MK Dons (formerly Wimbledon)

Next division:

Leyton Orient
Barnet

There are also many more clubs within a half hour drive of London. Of the clubs mentioned, Arsenal currently have the biggest real fan base, followed by Tottenham, with Chelsea obviously making rapid advances. West Ham are the only other genuinely big London club, in terms of fan base. Of those London clubs not currently in the Premiership, five have been in the top division within relatively recent memory: Crystal Palace, Watford, MK Dons (Wimbledon), QPR and Millwall.

And then, of course, there are Man Utd and Liverpool. Both have a large number of supporters in London.

impressive!!!

In Milano city that is so small, there are 3 professional team.
Milan and Inter and the Brera (it's the name of a central neighborhood and they played at the Arena Civica, 30.000 seats).

but in the Conurbation, the are in the first 15 km outside the borders there are other 3 clubs:
Monza, Pro Sesto and Rhodense. Monza played for many decades in Serie B (our 2° league), and Rhodende many years in the 3th league.

in the Metropolitan Area, the biggest one (but smallest than the one of London), with 6.5/7.5 Millions of inhabitants there are other professional teams:

Legnano (played some years in Serie A during the 30's, 40's and 50's.
Varese (many years in A and B)
Como (many years in A)
Atalanta (46 years in A)
Fanfulla (many decades in the 3th league)
Lecco (3 years in A)
Pro Patria (12 years in A)
Seregno (played several times in B)
Alzano (it is in B)
Albino (several years in B)
Leffe (it played many years in B and today merged with the Albino)
Virescit Boccaleone (many years in C1, our 3th league)
Magenta (some years in B)
Vita Nova (few years in B)
PergoCrema (many years in B)
Crema (many, many years in B and now merged with the Pergocrema)
Vogherese (some years in B)
Pavia (few years in B)
Romanese (many years in third league)


totally are 21 clubs that played in the Serie A and Serie B.

all are located inside the MA of Milano, at not more than 45 km from the city centre!
Virescit and Romanese are the only 2 on that list that never played in A or B, but they spent many decades in the 3th League and for several times were very close to the promotion to Serie B.
Brera never played in the first 4 Leagues.

then there is another one dozen of Milan Metro Area clubs that in the last 70 years played at least in the 3th league.

[eli]

Originally Posted by JimB

Ah! See now, that's very, very different.

75 million Man Utd fans worldwide, I can believe. But Man Utd doesn't, as you originally claimed, have 70 million paying members. I doubt that there are even as many as 200,000 paying members.

As Mr Goodfellow also said in that article, "Someone can be a cradle-to-grave fan, but we will not necessarily have them spending anything with us."

Real madrid:

more than 400.000 paying members
http://www.realmadrid.com/articulo/c...stas_25576.htm

worldwide fan base of half a billion people (timesomline.co.uk)

[JimB]

Originally Posted by eli

Real madrid:

more than 400.000 paying members
http://www.realmadrid.com/articulo/c...stas_25576.htm

worldwide fan base of half a billion people (timesomline.co.uk)

The worldwide fan base figure is an utterly meaningless statistic. For starters, it's only a very rough estimate. Secondly, the chances are that 495 million of that so called 500 million fan base have never contributed a penny to Real Madrid's wealth, and nor will they. Thirdly, these statistics are compiled once or twice a year and show only that there is no loyalty in this sort of "support". I saw a recent report in which Man United's so called European support had fallen by 5 million or so over the previous six months, while Chelsea's had increased by 20 million.

Which tells me only one thing - that these people aren't supporters at all. They're just bandwagon jumpers who'll follow whichever team is currently successful and / or glamorous.

[eli]

Originally Posted by JimB

The worldwide fan base figure is an utterly meaningless statistic. For starters, it's only a very rough estimate. Secondly, the chances are that 495 million of that so called 500 million fan base have never contributed a penny to Real Madrid's wealth, and nor will they. Thirdly, these statistics are compiled once or twice a year and show only that there is no loyalty in this sort of "support". I saw a recent report in which Man United's so called European support had fallen by 5 million or so over the previous six months, while Chelsea's had increased by 20 million.

Which tells me only one thing - that these people aren't supporters at all. They're just bandwagon jumpers who'll follow whichever team is currently successful and / or glamorous.

[gruber]

Originally Posted by JimB

The worldwide fan base figure is an utterly meaningless statistic. For starters, it's only a very rough estimate. Secondly, the chances are that 495 million of that so called 500 million fan base have never contributed a penny to Real Madrid's wealth, and nor will they. Thirdly, these statistics are compiled once or twice a year and show only that there is no loyalty in this sort of "support". I saw a recent report in which Man United's so called European support had fallen by 5 million or so over the previous six months, while Chelsea's had increased by 20 million.

Which tells me only one thing - that these people aren't supporters at all. They're just bandwagon jumpers who'll follow whichever team is currently successful and / or glamorous.

completely agree with you.

[bubomb]

This is a cracking little stadium, that nobody knows about. It's in Trieste, Italy. Capacity is 32 454. US Triestina Calcio play in the stadium. AC Milan played here in the Champions League for one season.

[Köbtke]

Originally Posted by bubomb

AC Milan played here in the Champions League for one season.

Why?

I actually knew of this stadium. And have always liked the looks of it. Speakingh of AC Milan, Nereo Rocco actually reminds me of a little San Siro, with the columns and steepness of the stands and closeness to the pitch.