daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 19th, 2014, 06:05 PM   #201
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Quote:
Ministry of Transports and Chinese partners might finish bullet train design project this year
19 Ian 2014, 16:30 • ENGLISH

The Ministry of Transports and the Chinese partners might this year finish the project of the Romanian stretch of the bullet train connecting Vienna, Budapest, Bucharest and Constanta (south-eastern Romania), Romanian Minister of Transports Ramona Manescu told the Antena 3 TV station on Saturday, January 18.

'We are talking together with the Chinese partners about the bullet train connecting Vienna, Budapest, Bucharest and Constanta. From the border to Constanta we can build this stretch without European funds too. This year we hope to be able to finish at least the project due to which we should effectively begin building the railway,' said the Minister of Transports.

'By the end of 2014-20 we want to have bullet trains in Romania, goods trains should be able to run at 120 kilometres per hour, passenger ones, at 160 kilometres per hour and the bullet train from the border to Constanta should run at 200 kilometres per hour,' also said Manescu.

She said that some years ago the authorities laid emphasis on road transport to the detriment of the railway one and at present one of the main aims of the Ministry of Transports is to transfer as much as possible of the goods transport and the passenger one to roads from the railways, which should be cheaper.

In late November Premier Victor Ponta said that, following the China-South-Eastern Europe business forum, which was held in Bucharest, the Chinese side made this suggestion in order to promote their new technology of bullet trains and made it clear that, for the beginning, there would be a first pilot project amounting to 500 million euros.
http://www1.agerpres.ro/english/2014...-year-16-30-41
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania

KingNick liked this post
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 19th, 2014, 06:21 PM   #202
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

How serious is this proposal and are they planing on running these trains from Constangeles all the way to Vienna? Would be a rather long stretch.
__________________
Europa per gli europei
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 06:22 PM   #203
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

It's difficult to assess how serious is this - you mean how feasible is it?!

The project itself is outrageously expensive - EUR 11 B, but the Chinese seem to be interested to finance it, since they want to promote their high speed technology in EU.

We'll see in the coming years I guess. It's too early to tell.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 07:08 PM   #204
Richard_P
Registered User
 
Richard_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sesame Street
Posts: 4,798
Likes (Received): 2586

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
someone in Romania should and stop spreading . HS rail is expensive and regarding poor state of present rail lines this subject is brought to light only to cover present problems and negligence. Non of present EU member states which were in "east block" have or seriously plans to build HS lines. So I don't think that Romania - second poorest in EU - can afford it. Finito.
Richard_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 07:41 PM   #205
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

We'll see. I am pessimistic too, but you never know.

PS: There is now significant investment into modernizing railways with EU funds > EUR 2 billion.

PS2: There is a HSR project linking Vienna to Budapest, to which Romania has adhered some years ago, in order to take it from Budapest to Bucharest and further to Constanta.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania

Last edited by Le Clerk; January 19th, 2014 at 08:14 PM.
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #206
mavis_dark
Registered User
 
mavis_dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 585
Likes (Received): 365

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
but the Chinese seem to be interested to finance it, since they want to promote their high speed technology in EU.
What technology? I thought they have been reproducing trains build by Bombardier, Kawasaki and Alstom.
mavis_dark no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 08:45 PM   #207
Richard_P
Registered User
 
Richard_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sesame Street
Posts: 4,798
Likes (Received): 2586

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
We'll see. I am pessimistic too, but you never know.
PS: There is now significant investment into modernizing railways with EU funds > EUR 2 billion.
Yes it i happening but to my knowledge only major works are on Bucharest - Brasov and Bucharest - Constanca while nothing happens on other routes. Watching Sibiu - Deva cab view I've also noticed that close to tracks lay new turnouts with concrete slabs which were all grown by grass/bushes while in track old turnout with wooden ties was in place. So why those weren't mounted?

Quote:
PS2: There is a HSR project linking Vienna to Budapest, to which Romania has adhered some years ago, in order to take it from Budapest to Bucharest and further to Constanta.
But do You have seen any real HSR investment in Hungary? The only true HSR project in east block close for implementation was in Poland but after many ups and downs it was postponed by at least 10 years so maybe it will be completed by 2030 maybe not. Project is postponed mostly that it would consume all 2014-2020 sources for rail which regarding poor state of present network wasn't possible to manage. And You must remember that Poland has tons of money more than Romania... .

Quote:
Originally Posted by mavis_dark
What technology? I thought they have been reproducing trains build by Bombardier, Kawasaki and Alstom.
Chinese companies bought patent rights to those constructions and although their patent rights may be restricted to some countries they may for example offer "Japanese" solutions in Europe while in other Asian countries use "European" solutions etc.
Richard_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 09:11 PM   #208
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Yes it i happening but to my knowledge only major works are on Bucharest - Brasov and Bucharest - Constanca while nothing happens on other routes. Watching Sibiu - Deva cab view I've also noticed that close to tracks lay new turnouts with concrete slabs which were all grown by grass/bushes while in track old turnout with wooden ties was in place. So why those weren't mounted?
Bucharest-Predeal(Brasov) and BUcharest -Constanta have been modernised since a few years already at 160 km/h. Currently, there are modernisation works in western Romania on the Simeria-Coslariu section, Curtici-Simeria, and Sighisoara-Sibiu.

Quote:
But do You have seen any real HSR investment in Hungary? The only true HSR project in east block close for implementation was in Poland but after many ups and downs it was postponed by at least 10 years so maybe it will be completed by 2030 maybe not. Project is postponed mostly that it would consume all 2014-2020 sources for rail which regarding poor state of present network wasn't possible to manage. And You must remember that Poland has tons of money more than Romania... .
What do you think?! That all these projects should be scrapped?! If the Chinese are willing to pay, then we'll do it. It's not Romania's money, nor is it Poland's, but China's.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 09:46 PM   #209
nenea_hartia
Skeptic
 
nenea_hartia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Romania
Posts: 3,714
Likes (Received): 233

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Currently, there are modernisation works in western Romania on [...] and Sighisoara-Sibiu.
Sighișoara-Coșlariu.
__________________
Oltchim 2012-2013
OLTCHIM The Comeback

Le Clerk liked this post
nenea_hartia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #210
medicu' de garda
Moderator de garda
 
medicu' de garda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 1,798
Likes (Received): 1368

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk
Curtici-Simeria
Curtici-km 614, near Ghioroc and Paulis (I forgot which one is the exact limit). The rest of the line to Simeria will be tendered in the current financing period, possibly followed by Sighiosoara-Brasov. And, recent news talked about Calafat-Craiova aswell, but I'm not too sure about that one
__________________
Trust me, I'm an east-european doctor.
medicu' de garda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 12:54 AM   #211
Richard_P
Registered User
 
Richard_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sesame Street
Posts: 4,798
Likes (Received): 2586

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Bucharest-Predeal(Brasov) and BUcharest -Constanta have been modernised since a few years already at 160 km/h.
OK those two are visibly recently upgraded.

Quote:
Currently, there are modernisation works in western Romania on the Simeria-Coslariu section, Curtici-Simeria, and Sighisoara-Sibiu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nenea_hartia
Sighișoara-Coșlariu
Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda
Curtici-km 614, near Ghioroc and Paulis
So at present modernised is section Sighișoara-Coșlariu - Simeira and Curtici - Arad - Paulis. That is still far from completing modernisation of whole line HU-Arad - Simeira - Sighișoara - Brasov - Bucharest which fully may be ready to 2020. Even adding Calafat-Craiova (hopefully with electrification) this is still drop in ocean of needs. Hope that additional modernisation projects would fit into 2014-20 budget. Please post in this thread information's about modernisation progress / new projects as those information's are hard to find in English.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk
What do you think?! That all these projects should be scrapped?! If the Chinese are willing to pay, then we'll do it. It's not Romania's money, nor is it Poland's, but China's.
And do You really think that Chinese companies are Santa's elf's and bring to Romania gift in HS rail form? If Chinese companies would build HS rail in Your country it would mean that sooner or later You as taxpayers will repay that with huge interest.
Richard_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 01:16 AM   #212
frunzaverde
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,732
Likes (Received): 3058

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Single track sections on some routes can be disappointing but what is striking for me is low speed and large amount of grass on tracks suggesting insufficient maintenance. Everybody knows that worst maintained railway lines in EU are in Poland but I must admit that Romania is on straight way to repeat that "success". ATM Romania has a bit better maintenance that network is passable with low speeds although without point speed restrictions but that may change rapidly.
Maintenance is generally worse in Romania than in Poland. It's improving slightly, but it's even worse than LV, which, in my mind, is worse than PL.
There are lots and lots of temporary speed restrictions that are not fixed for years and years - they are marked by a yellow square by the trackside.

At times, they just become "permanent", marked by a speed downgrade and a permanent marker indicating 50 or 30 or 10 as the maximum speed.

On one segment of mainline track (in Valea Jiului), the entire trackside signaling is missing for more than a decade now. No fix in sight.

Even newly modernized stretches of track suffer from maintenance issues - an accident in the beginning of 2012 at Mosistea led to very serious restrictions on a portion of highly damaged track. Repairs were completed last month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
Bucharest-Predeal(Brasov) and BUcharest -Constanta have been modernised since a few years already at 160 km/h. Currently, there are modernisation works in western Romania on the Simeria-Coslariu section, Curtici-Simeria, and Sighisoara-Sibiu.
160 km/h is nothing more than false advertising. No segment of track in Romania, not even 1 km is certified for operation at speeds exceeding 140 km/h. Including newly modernized segments. And there's a chance you might go 140 only on Bucharest (Baneasa) - Constanta and on Bucharest (well, Chitila) - Ploiesti Vest (Brazi). That's it.

Last edited by frunzaverde; January 20th, 2014 at 01:32 AM.
frunzaverde no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 01:32 AM   #213
Richard_P
Registered User
 
Richard_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sesame Street
Posts: 4,798
Likes (Received): 2586

Quote:
Originally Posted by frunzaverde View Post
Maintenance is generally worse in Romania than in Poland. It's improving slightly, but it's even worse than LV, which, in my mind, is worse than PL.
There are lots and lots of temporary speed restrictions that are not fixed for years and years - they are marked by a yellow square by the trackside.
At times, they just become "permanent", marked by a speed downgrade and a permanent marker indicating 50 or 30 or 10 as the maximum speed.
On one segment of mainline track (in Valea Jiului), the entire trackside signaling is missing for more than a decade now. No fix in sight.
Watching cab views I didn't noticed too many such speed restrictions instead taking impression that train runs slow but with steady pace although it may be a result of low quality and mostly accelerated vids. The worrying signal was grass existence on basically every tracks but I didn't thought that situation is so bad - strict point restrictions are the worst regarding rail transport. It drastically extends journey time and increases energy consumption making railway highly uncompetitive
Richard_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 02:53 AM   #214
Le Clerk
AUTOBANN.ED
 
Le Clerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 35,479
Likes (Received): 12044

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Please post in this thread information's about modernisation progress / new projects as those information's are hard to find in English.
I will.


Quote:
And do You really think that Chinese companies are Santa's elf's and bring to Romania gift in HS rail form? If Chinese companies would build HS rail in Your country it would mean that sooner or later You as taxpayers will repay that with huge interest.
We do not know the financial agreement because there is none yet. But the idea is Romania can't afford and so it will not pay for it. If China thinks it's profitable, then it can invest here.
__________________
Rebuilding Bucharest's History: Lipscani Area |Victoriei Ave. | Elisabeta Bld.
Yes, it's Dracula's Castle
Best picture collection of UNESCO sites in Romania
Castles and Mansions in Romania
Le Clerk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 01:42 PM   #215
Richard_P
Registered User
 
Richard_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sesame Street
Posts: 4,798
Likes (Received): 2586

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
If China thinks it's profitable, then it can invest here.
So it will never be build. Profitable HS lines build on commercial basis are scarce and exist mostly in Japan, Taiwan and stretch Paris - Lyon. The remaining HS lines in the World were build with state support and require subsidy to be kept in good shape. Situation looks a bit better regarding train incomes which mostly cover its expenses but there are also deficit HS connections mostly in Spain.

There is also another reason why Chinese companies won't build HS line in Romania. The Chinese mechanism in rail sector is that Chinese banks give you loans on good conditions but You must let building contract to Chinese companies allowing Chinese workforce to build it and lastly You must buy Chinese rolling stock. So as You see this is fairly bad for economy especially in such country as Romania which has allot of available workforce, produces its own rolling stock and infrastructure components. Such deal is also against EU rules so if somehow Romania would issue a tender Chinese companies would end like on road PPP deals.

So lose your hopes and at least for now forget about HS in Romania but have high hopes that conventional network will be upgraded to speeds 160-200. Corridor Bucharest - Craiova - Filiasi has good perspectives for 200 and with additional double tracking of Filiasi - Timisoara - Arad may create attractive corridor from HU to Constanca.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frunzaverde
160 km/h is nothing more than false advertising. No segment of track in Romania, not even 1 km is certified for operation at speeds exceeding 140 km/h. Including newly modernized segments. And there's a chance you might go 140 only on Bucharest (Baneasa) - Constanta and on Bucharest (well, Chitila) - Ploiesti Vest (Brazi). That's it
Could You explain where is problem with rising speed limit to 160 km/h? Is it because of lack of in cab signaling or lines were modernised to 160 km for tilting trains but only to 140 regarding regular trains?

Last edited by Richard_P; January 20th, 2014 at 03:11 PM.
Richard_P no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 02:08 PM   #216
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Could You explain where is problem with rising speed limit to 160 km/h? Is it because of lack of in cab signaling or lines were modernised to 160 km for tilting trains but only to 140 regarding regular trains?
Signaling on the Constanta stretch would have to be improved to ETCS, but has not. The substructure is okay.
For those well-informed, it was reported in another forum that following the upgrading of Bucuresti-Constanta, the copper wire of the signals was stolen and due to the lack of signaling and CFR's unwillingness to replace the wires out of its own pocket unlike the subsidized upgrade, the line is currently operated at a snail's pace. Is that true or has the wire been replaced and operations resumed at 140 kmh?
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 05:38 PM   #217
frunzaverde
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,732
Likes (Received): 3058

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Signaling on the Constanta stretch would have to be improved to ETCS, but has not. The substructure is okay.
For those well-informed, it was reported in another forum that following the upgrading of Bucuresti-Constanta, the copper wire of the signals was stolen and due to the lack of signaling and CFR's unwillingness to replace the wires out of its own pocket unlike the subsidized upgrade, the line is currently operated at a snail's pace. Is that true or has the wire been replaced and operations resumed at 140 kmh?
The whole issue has been taken care of last spring - the line currently operates at normal speeds and capacity levels.

It wasn't that CFR wasn't willing to pocket the fixes, there was an issue as to whom was responsible for guarding the track, since the contractors had not completed the work when the copper was stolen. They've resolved the issue.
frunzaverde no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 08:17 PM   #218
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Signaling on the Constanta stretch would have to be improved to ETCS, but has not. The substructure is okay.
For those well-informed, it was reported in another forum that following the upgrading of Bucuresti-Constanta, the copper wire of the signals was stolen and due to the lack of signaling and CFR's unwillingness to replace the wires out of its own pocket unlike the subsidized upgrade, the line is currently operated at a snail's pace. Is that true or has the wire been replaced and operations resumed at 140 kmh?
You don't need ETCS for 160 km/h. Can easily be done by classic signaling as well, just like it is done in Austria and Germany with PZB/Indusi (which is also used in Romania).
__________________
Europa per gli europei

Robi_damian liked this post
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #219
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
someone in Romania should and stop spreading . HS rail is expensive and regarding poor state of present rail lines this subject is brought to light only to cover present problems and negligence. Non of present EU member states which were in "east block" have or seriously plans to build HS lines. So I don't think that Romania - second poorest in EU - can afford it. Finito.
Poland considered it seriously and probably could afford if that was a priority. Eventually the idea was dropped and probably for a good reason, but it might come back again if they become richer. In Romania I indeed do not see it happening any time soon. Some decent 160 km/h upgrades would be good enough anyway.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #220
Robi_damian
Registered User
 
Robi_damian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Timisoara
Posts: 2,756
Likes (Received): 9996

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Poland considered it seriously and probably could afford if that was a priority. Eventually the idea was dropped and probably for a good reason, but it might come back again if they become richer. In Romania I indeed do not see it happening any time soon. Some decent 160 km/h upgrades would be good enough anyway.
It is highly unlikely to happen. There is only one large city in the whole country, and Budapest or Vienna do not justify high traffic levels as of yet.

I still daydream to see an upgraded line with trains going 160 and no speed restrictions. If the Brits can operate Diesel passenger trains from the 70's at 200 on (upgraded) lines from the 1800's, a little willpower is all it takes.
Robi_damian está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium