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Old January 20th, 2014, 10:57 PM   #221
Sunfuns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robi_damian View Post
It is highly unlikely to happen. There is only one large city in the whole country, and Budapest or Vienna do not justify high traffic levels as of yet.
You are talking about Romania, right? Doesn't matter which country it is, the most important traffic is always within it's borders. For Romania Bucharest-Constanta line might be the most important and worth upgrading.
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Old January 20th, 2014, 11:35 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
You are talking about Romania, right? Doesn't matter which country it is, the most important traffic is always within it's borders. For Romania Bucharest-Constanta line might be the most important and worth upgrading.
They will start with Bucharest-Constanta HSR. That's the plan.

BTW: Bucharest-Constanta railway line has already been upgraded for 160km/h.

Bucharest-Constanta (250 km):














Bucharest-Predeal/Brasov (150 km) also modernised:
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Old January 21st, 2014, 12:04 AM   #223
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Are there currently trains running at that speed on that line?
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Old January 21st, 2014, 12:24 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Poland considered it seriously and probably could afford if that was a priority. Eventually the idea was dropped and probably for a good reason, but it might come back again if they become richer. In Romania I indeed do not see it happening any time soon. Some decent 160 km/h upgrades would be good enough anyway.
Poland is implementing a high speed line. From this year the new Pendolino trains will drive 160km/h on these tracks. But in time, speed will go up to 200 km/h.



The trains costed 2.7 billion zloty, so around 675 million Euro. 50% is a loan from the ECB, 25% EU-funds and 25% Polish money.
4 of the 20 have been delivered so far.



Maybe Romania can apply as well for a loan. At least EU-funds should be easier to get, apart from money from China.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 12:34 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Robi_damian View Post
I still daydream to see an upgraded line with trains going 160 and no speed restrictions. If the Brits can operate Diesel passenger trains from the 70's at 200 on (upgraded) lines from the 1800's, a little willpower is all it takes.
It's not only will power but also line parameters in which the most important are curve radius and horizontal differences. Although this second parameter is hard to determine, the curve radius is easy to check looking at google maps. Maximum speed can be determined by mathematic formula but to ease things it is close to that:
curve radius (m) / max speed )km/h)
425 / 100
700 / 140
1200 / 160
2400 / 200
Regarding that Romania is mountainous it is clear that many routes can't be easily upgraded for higher speeds and achieving that may require many new alignments large of it in tunnels. Compare to that Great Britain didn't had such problems as its first lines were fairly straight with gentle horizontal layout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JanVL
Poland is implementing a high speed line. From this year the new Pendolino trains will drive 160km/h on these tracks. But in time, speed will go up to 200 km/h.
According to EU rules that modernised to 200 km/h line is judged as HS line it will happen but certainly not now as modernisations are delayed and trains will go only 160 km/h with times almost the same as before. But when those will be finished projected travel times may be achieved and on route from Warszawa to Katowice / Kraków Pendolinos may reach 220-230 km/h (although there track alignment is suitable even for 300 km/h but 3 kV DC power supply isn't suitable for such speeds). Although completely flat Poland isn't the best comparison to mountainous Romania which should look more at Czech Republic.

Last edited by Richard_P; January 21st, 2014 at 12:44 AM.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 01:07 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
That is still far from completing modernisation of whole line HU-Arad - Simeira - Sighișoara - Brasov - Bucharest which fully may be ready to 2020.
Simeria - Paulis (km 614) is a curvy stretch in the Mures valley. Perhaps this part has been excluded from modernisation as the Romanian Railway Autority or CFR might be eager to straighten some of the curves?
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Old January 21st, 2014, 01:45 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_P
Although completely flat Poland isn't the best comparison to mountainous Romania which should look more at Czech Republic.
True, the lines will, for the moment, only reach Katowice and Krakow in the south, which is still before the area with more hills and mountains.



In the Czech Republic they use one of the previous versions of the Pendolino.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 02:04 AM   #228
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BTW: dunno if it was posted before here.

This is Hyperion, the EMU produced in Romania that will be used on some lines - goes up to 200 km/h.




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Old January 21st, 2014, 02:30 AM   #229
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Looks good.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 03:09 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Le Clerk View Post
This is Hyperion, the EMU produced in Romania that will be used on some lines - goes up to 200 km/h.
More about it here:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542
I wonder if it's based on some western train or Softronic designed it on its own.

Interesting is also what happened with Bombardier AGC trains project which license gained Remarul 16 Februarie but really never started production, not even test vehicle. Interesting if this deal is still valid.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 08:57 AM   #231
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Softronic, which produces Hyperion, is an established producer in Romania. They have produced other stuff before, that was sold to Hungary and DB (Deutsche Bahn). They have their own products.

Check their website. It's interesting.

http://www.softronic.ro
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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:03 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
Interesting is also what happened with Bombardier AGC trains project which license gained Remarul 16 Februarie but really never started production, not even test vehicle. Interesting if this deal is still valid.
Romanian never bought Bombardier trains, but only subway trains, which were assembled in Romania though, same as the new CAF trains for the subway. Maybe that is why.

However, the Siemens EMUs that we use on some lines were assembled at Astra Arad, which is now quite a big producer of train cars in Europe and elsewhere. They have now almost EUR 200 m orders from Brasil and Czech Republic to honor.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 10:51 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
Maybe Romania can apply as well for a loan. At least EU-funds should be easier to get, apart from money from China.
Romania is using all the EU money earmarked for railway investments in Corridor IV: Hungary to Bucharest and Constanta. But the EU money is so little compared to needs that it takes 2 EU budgetary cycles (2007-2013 and 2014-2020) to complete just this one corridor.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 10:59 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theijs View Post
Simeria - Paulis (km 614) is a curvy stretch in the Mures valley. Perhaps this part has been excluded from modernisation as the Romanian Railway Autority or CFR might be eager to straighten some of the curves?
The modernisation project includes alignment correction, which in some cases means moving the line to a whole new course, with several bridges and tunnels. This is also done on the stretches currently under construction, between Sighisoara and Simeria, so no worries, the EU covers all the expenses. The projects for the hillier parts of the corridor are well designed in my opinion, allowing for much greater speeds.

LE: damn, I just used my 1000th message in this topic
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Old January 21st, 2014, 11:30 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Are there currently trains running at that speed on that line?
I know that tests were made at that speed. Don't know if they are actually going at exact that speed.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 12:37 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Are there currently trains running at that speed on that line?
No.

At the moment, the maximum possible speed is 140 km/h, which is usually achieved with higher ranking trains (as long as people stop stealing the trackside equipment ). The problem is, there still isn't a suitable signaling and safety system instaled to allow operation at 160km/h. AFAIK, the chosen solution is to install ERTMS level2 on all modernised lines on (former) corridor IV, running in parallel with the older INDUSI.
For now, the sections currently U/C between Sighisoara and Simeria will receive this system, after the winner will finally be settled in court. Oh, and an experimental section is supposed to be instaled on Chitila-Brazi section of Bucharest-Ploiesti (I might have forgotten the exact stations), in order to conduct tests with the handfull of trains CFR Calatori wishes to prepare for this. No exact info on that yet .

Which brings us to another problem. Even if we have the infrastructure for such speeds, it is unlikely we will have suitable rolling stock capable of safely operating at those speeds, by means of an in-cabin signaling system. And AFAIK, there are no official plans to modernise the fleet for this purpose, apart from some rumours that some ~5 trains might be equiped in order to run the Bucharest-Constanta IC trains. That's it. In these conditions, there will be noone to use the better infrastructure for some years. Foreign companies aren't likely, since our market isn't a very atractive one, and freight doesn't need such high speeds...
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Old January 21st, 2014, 01:58 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by JanVL View Post
In the Czech Republic they use one of the previous versions of the Pendolino.
Although this from Czech Republic is older it is better as it has tilt system which in Polish units isn't mounted. Tilt system is helpful on mountainous lines and in Czech Republic it allows higher speeds than other trains. Pendolinos are used on main corridor from Prague to Ostrava which between main stations is 356 km long and trains cover it in 3 h 7 minutes achieving average speed of 115 km/h despite maximum speed of only 160 km/h. Conventional trains on this route can reach only 140 km/h thus have 30 minutes longer journey times. So I think that Romania should follow Czech solutions at least on Bucharest - Brasov - Cluj-Napoca (Oradea after electrification)/Arad line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Clerc
Romanian never bought Bombardier trains, but only subway trains, which were assembled in Romania though, same as the new CAF trains for the subway. Maybe that is why.
No I am talking about this train:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autorai..._capacit%C3%A9

Quote:
Originally Posted by medicu' de garda
At the moment, the maximum possible speed is 140 km/h, which is usually achieved with higher ranking trains (as long as people stop stealing the trackside equipment ). The problem is, there still isn't a suitable signaling and safety system instaled to allow operation at 160km/h. AFAIK, the chosen solution is to install ERTMS level2 on all modernised lines on (former) corridor IV, running in parallel with the older INDUSI.
This is / was common problem in many countries although most of them allow 160 km/h without cab signaling. In Germany such train even may be run by one train driver while in Poland 2 train drivers are obligatory from 130 - 160 km/h but in Italy every train must have two train drivers AS Romania clearly decided that running train with speed higher that 140 km/h without cab signaling isn't safe so it is up to building such equipment but for that You don't need ERTMS level 2 but ETCS level 1 is sufficient as well as cheaper (I do understand that Romania has radio communication on trains).

Quote:
Which brings us to another problem. Even if we have the infrastructure for such speeds, it is unlikely we will have suitable rolling stock capable of safely operating at those speeds, by means of an in-cabin signaling system. And AFAIK, there are no official plans to modernise the fleet for this purpose, apart from some rumours that some ~5 trains might be equiped in order to run the Bucharest-Constanta IC trains.
The on board equipment needed for ERTMS can be installed basically on every existing rolling stock and regarding its reduced use 5 locos may be suitable to cover initial stretch although requiring some additional loco changes.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 09:12 PM   #238
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PS2: There is a HSR project linking Vienna to Budapest,
No, there is no such project.
The current line allows mostly top speeds of 140 or 160 km/h. Maybe in the future more sections will be upgraded to 160 km/h or even 200 km/h, but we won't see a dedicated high-speed line Wien - Budapest for a long time.

In Romania the line Bucuresti - Brasov - Arad - Curtici is currently being upgraded for speeds up to 160 km/h. This will probably be finished within 10 years or so.
So I don't really get the point of a discussion about a 200 km/h high-speed line (well, 200 km/h isn't really highspeed). Shall this go parallel to the upgraded 160 km/h line? That would make no sense.

Or are they thinking about a route via Craiova - Timisoara, whoich would make more sense, as it would serve another area.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 12:55 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Richard_P View Post
It's not only will power but also line parameters in which the most important are curve radius and horizontal differences. Although this second parameter is hard to determine, the curve radius is easy to check looking at google maps. Maximum speed can be determined by mathematic formula but to ease things it is close to that:
curve radius (m) / max speed )km/h)
425 / 100
700 / 140
1200 / 160
2400 / 200
Trains do not run at over 140 even on the Bucharest-Constanta line. And they do not really need new signaling at up to 160.
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Old January 24th, 2014, 10:58 PM   #240
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No, there is no such project.
The current line allows mostly top speeds of 140 or 160 km/h. Maybe in the future more sections will be upgraded to 160 km/h or even 200 km/h, but we won't see a dedicated high-speed line Wien - Budapest for a long time.

In Romania the line Bucuresti - Brasov - Arad - Curtici is currently being upgraded for speeds up to 160 km/h. This will probably be finished within 10 years or so.
So I don't really get the point of a discussion about a 200 km/h high-speed line (well, 200 km/h isn't really highspeed). Shall this go parallel to the upgraded 160 km/h line? That would make no sense.

Or are they thinking about a route via Craiova - Timisoara, whoich would make more sense, as it would serve another area.
Romania agreed with Hungary a few years ago to continue the planned Wienna-Budapest HSR line to Bucharest and Constanta. I know it was empty talk considering the fact that there was no investor at the moment, but this doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed as a possibility.
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