daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 20th, 2008, 11:16 AM   #81
RoadUser
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 200
Likes (Received): 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Dutch sign is like the one your posted (slightly different arrows). In basics, it's the same as the Canadian one, only the colors are different and the green circle.
There is apparently a difference between Canadian white signs with green outlines and our blue ones:

According to the link, a black bicycle on a white background with a green outline


means "This road is an official bicycle route. Watch for cyclists and be prepared to share the road with them. "

Here, and I assume in the Netherlands and the rest of Europe, a white bicycle on a blue background means "bicycles only"
RoadUser no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 20th, 2008, 02:40 PM   #82
Alex Von Königsberg
Registered User
 
Alex Von Königsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 11

Canadians do not clearly state what green circle really means. Generally, it is said that green circle gives permission to perform an indicated manoeuvre. However, in case of the sign below, it is different.


This sign reads "Truck should take this route" (in this case it is mandatory). Go figure...
Alex Von Königsberg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2008, 08:47 PM   #83
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
As for Canada, I am pretty sure that it DOES prohibit a left turn. Another question is why the hell they would also use "No left turn" sign? But apparently they really use both signs.
I believe that the green circle sign is only used in Quebec (and therefore I wonder whether they also use the "left turn prohibited" sign or not). It is not in the Ontario Driver's Handbook, and I've never seen it here.

Such obligatory signs in Ontario are only used to describe where each lane on a multi-lane road may turn, and it looks like this:



I'm pretty sure that this one is used throughout North America though.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2008, 11:41 PM   #84
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,088
Likes (Received): 4752

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
As for Canada, I am pretty sure that it DOES prohibit a left turn. Another question is why the hell they would also use "No left turn" sign? But apparently they really use both signs.
We also use both of them. I never understood why.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2008, 11:48 PM   #85
keber
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Slovenia
Posts: 9,879
Likes (Received): 1364

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
People with red/green color blindness (at least mild one - with strong one they are not allows to drive anyway) could have some problems in certain circumstances. This is also why, that mostly red/blue combination is used, when dividing prohibitions or allowances.
keber no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2008, 11:55 PM   #86
arriaca
BANNED
 
arriaca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,983
Likes (Received): 91

In this page you can compare traffic signals (European and American)

http://www.sitographics.com/enciclog...o/entrada.html
arriaca no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 12:25 AM   #87
Alex Von Königsberg
Registered User
 
Alex Von Königsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCat View Post
I believe that the green circle sign is only used in Quebec (and therefore I wonder whether they also use the "left turn prohibited" sign or not). It is not in the Ontario Driver's Handbook, and I've never seen it here.
Green circle is also used in British Columbia, I saw it myself and quite liked it. For instance, before intersection with one-way street, they used green circle with straight and left/right arrow, and not the red crossed circle prohibition sign used throughout the USA. Very similar concept to the Russian and Ukrainian signs, but in former USSR they don't use turn prohibitions at all (except "no U-turn").

As for people with colour blindness, they can distinguish mandatory and prohibition signs in that the first ones are not slashed while the others are.

I still think that international circular signs with blue background catch your attention quicker than green outer circles.
Alex Von Königsberg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 12:47 AM   #88
Alex Von Königsberg
Registered User
 
Alex Von Königsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Portland
Posts: 1,053
Likes (Received): 11

Here is how a completely colour blind person sees the Canadian signs (two left ones) and a European sign that conveys the same message as the middle sign:



If you were colour blind, I bet you would prefer the European format given that the size is the same
Alex Von Königsberg no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 01:11 AM   #89
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,088
Likes (Received): 4752

^ They're the same to me.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 04:05 AM   #90
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Green circle is also used in British Columbia, I saw it myself and quite liked it. For instance, before intersection with one-way street, they used green circle with straight and left/right arrow, and not the red crossed circle prohibition sign used throughout the USA. Very similar concept to the Russian and Ukrainian signs, but in former USSR they don't use turn prohibitions at all (except "no U-turn").
Interesting, I only know about Ontario, since it's the only province I've driven in (well, I've driven in Quebec a little too, but not much). But does BC also use the prohibition sign? In any case, Ontario doesn't use it (i.e. the green one), so I guess this ambiguity doesn't exist here. In fact, I remember that the green-circled sign caught my attention too when I visited Montreal a few years ago. Another strange thing in Montreal was that their traffic lights seem to be programmed in a very simplistic way, so when your lights turn red, the perpendicular direction gets a green immediately, with no delay But that's a topic for another thread.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 12:09 PM   #91
snowman159
Registered User
 
snowman159's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,469
Likes (Received): 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan1113 View Post
Oh the arrogance! How pathetic -- it has nothing to do with being PC. There is this little thing called tourism, and there's also this little thing that is very popular in the US in particular called road trips. These so-called road trips are very attractive to countless foreigners...(snip)

Not to mention that overall signs that use pictures isntead of text are much better anyway and should be welcome. Anything to make driving easier is better, especially given that in the US the death and accident rates are so huge (one of the worst in the developed world, with many states being even worse than poor states of certain parts of Europe).
The tourism argument is ridiculous, especially in this case. English is used by tourists all over the world as a lingua franca to communicate in foreign countries. Every educated person in the world has at least a basic command of the English language - more than enough to understand simple road signs. Illiterate, poor, or uneducated foreigners, as harsh as it may sound, hardly have the financial means to make US road trips. In fact, most of them would probably have an even harder time entering the US legally. And how many of those would make a road trip all by themselves? I think the few text-only road signs left today would be the least of their worries.
And I also think you're way overestimating the number of foreign tourists who don't speak any English and drive around the US. Oh, and their economical impact... that's hilarious.

If you're planning on driving in a foreign country, it's only common sense to familiarize yourself with the peculiarities and the traffic code of that country - and learn a few useful words in that language. I would consider it arrogant not to do so!


So, besides the language argument, why are pictorial signs so much better? As this discussion has shown sometimes their meaning is not quite as obvious as many would like to believe. The no passing zone sign would actually mean the exact opposite in Europe. Ergo, the public would still have to learn the exact meaning of some of the new signs, while a text-only sign means exactly what is says. All the really critical signs such as stop, yield, do not enter, etc. are universally understood anyhow.

I really don't see what actual problems the proposed changes would solve or try to solve. Just because it looks more modern (why?) or more European is not a good enough reason imho.
Wouldn't it suck if roads looked exactly the same all over the world? I find it charming that every state or country has its own little quirks when it comes to signage, numbering, etc.


cheers,
snowman
snowman159 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 02:52 PM   #92
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post
English is used by tourists all over the world as a lingua franca to communicate in foreign countries.
true
Quote:
Every educated person in the world has at least a basic command of the English language - more than enough to understand simple road signs.
not true - I've met many people who are at University and really struggle with basic English, before being taught it at university in England as preparation for their course - international students who have degrees and doing post-grad in England. As for specifics of road signs, my first language is English and I struggle to understand some US text-based road signs - I have to think about what they mean. It's because they don't use basic English (or even English), but use slang and jargon that's specifically used only in the US wrt roads. It's not English it's American sign-speak. The grammar on these signs is awful, the text rather difficult to get the meaning of the first time.
Quote:
If you're planning on driving in a foreign country, it's only common sense to familiarize yourself with the peculiarities and the traffic code of that country - and learn a few useful words in that language. I would consider it arrogant not to do so!
I would consider it arrogant that when driving the US authorities seem to be trying their hardest to make it difficult. Given that not all American adults can read, given that English isn't the official language by law just by practice, given that Spanish is the first language of a significant minority (and not long before it's a majority) of residents, it is highly arrogant to expect people to have to read blocks of psudo-English text while travelling at high speed, especially given that they are the only country in the world to do so.

By all means, this familiarisation happens, however the US makes it harder than it needs to be. Ireland, for instance uses a different pictogram system to the rest of Europe, yet I don't think it's that arrogant (it was blatantly done to be different to the UK, though) as it's easy to pick up as it's the same kind of system as elsewhere.
Quote:
So, besides the language argument, why are pictorial signs so much better?
As we've learnt, many Americans know what the text signs are from the shape of the words - a tourist wouldn't be able to do that - and anyway, they are effectively working by shapes, not letters - they work pictorially. Research has proven, in a great many countries, that while driving pictorial signs are safer than text-based ones. Tourists aren't what matter here, it's normal American drivers - I'm not saying change it (there's the cost involved, though the FHWA seems to be doing the change gradually, which negates that), however American roads would be safer if they went for pictorial signs.
Quote:
As this discussion has shown sometimes their meaning is not quite as obvious as many would like to believe. The no passing zone sign would actually mean the exact opposite in Europe.
no it wouldn't - you're arrogant enough not to bother to learn what signs would mean in Europe. There are some unintuitive signs, but America doesn't have to adopt them. Red outlined circle = prohibition, blue circle = mandatory, red outlined triangle = warning. This covers most signs - the one you mention has a red outlined circle (saying that this is a "don't do") and the picture is clearly a car passing another on it's right that's red (so that's the thing you don't do) and has a line through it (making it doubly clear that that is what's being prohibited) - no overtaking is it's meaning that's obvious to a European, and really not that hard for an American to get rather quickly the first time, and then instantly afterwards.
Quote:
Ergo, the public would still have to learn the exact meaning of some of the new signs, while a text-only sign means exactly what is says.
There is the thing that American drivers have to learn a new system, however they had to learn the old one. Fight through the jargon and understand the exact meaning of the text and even once they did they take longer to know what sign it is, as they have to read it, rather than just glance at the picture, or learn a further thing - the shape of the text on the sign.
Quote:
All the really critical signs such as stop, yield, do not enter, etc. are universally understood anyhow.
and note that they are ALL pictorial - stop signs and yield signs have their shape, hence why they are universally understood and no entry signs have the same design. They have words on, but these words are just reminders - their shape means that you don't need to read the words. And why not make other signs universally understood? It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but if it's on the same principles it wouldn't be hard for people to understand.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 03:17 PM   #93
Billpa
Beer is a Tasty Treat
 
Billpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Harrisburg
Posts: 767
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman159 View Post
So, besides the language argument, why are pictorial signs so much better?
It's actually pretty simple- when you're driving and paying attention to driving your brain responds much better to simple visual stimulation than to words. It's for that reason that when you're driving down a simple two lane road with a gentle curve ahead they put up (in N.Am.) a yellow diamond sign with an arrow bending in the same direction as the curve. It doesn't say "ALL TRAFFIC MUST TURN SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT AHEAD".
This has nothing at all to do with tourists or political correctness.
Billpa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 04:38 PM   #94
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,088
Likes (Received): 4752

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
This covers most signs - the one you mention has a red outlined circle (saying that this is a "don't do") and the picture is clearly a car passing another on it's right that's red (so that's the thing you don't do) and has a line through it (making it doubly clear that that is what's being prohibited)
Not true; it means the end of the prohibition, so after this sign you can overtake again. Can be confusing.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 04:49 PM   #95
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,088
Likes (Received): 4752


So what does this sign mean in Canada, and what would it mean in the US, if adopted? Overtaking prohibited or the end of the prohibition = overtaking allowed again?

In Europe it's like that:

- overtaking prohibited

- the end of the prohibition = overtaking allowed again
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 05:25 PM   #96
Billpa
Beer is a Tasty Treat
 
Billpa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Harrisburg
Posts: 767
Likes (Received): 7

I'm pretty sure it would mean NO PASSING. In North America, just having a red circle isn't enough for something to be prohibited, it will always have the slash as well. A green circle around the same symbol would likely be the equivalent for allowing for passing once again.
Billpa no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 05:53 PM   #97
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Not true; it means the end of the prohibition, so after this sign you can overtake again. Can be confusing.
err a Red slash wouldn't - it's not really used over here, though in the UK it's being brought in on signs like no cycling as people ignore the red circle. No left/right turn has always had it to make extra sure the wrong end of the stick isn't got. A greyed out sign with no slash would mean "overtaking allowed again", as you showed in your second post.

Blame the UK for the fact that we don't have many slashes on signs - we didn't put slashes on signs as they got in the way of the picture (Denmark puts slashes behind the picture) and Europe followed our lead.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 05:54 PM   #98
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post

So what does this sign mean in Canada, and what would it mean in the US, if adopted? Overtaking prohibited or the end of the prohibition = overtaking allowed again?

In Europe it's like that:

- overtaking prohibited

- the end of the prohibition = overtaking allowed again
Hmm I don't see the confusion - as far as I know, in Europe (and most of the world) the "end of prohibition" signs are all black, they don't have a red circle - exactly like in the sign you just showed.

In Canada, the top sign means that overtaking is prohibited.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 06:12 PM   #99
TheCat
IsraCanadian :)
 
TheCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,358
Likes (Received): 6

And regarding textual signs - as I said already, in my opinion they are horrible. Even though English is not my first language, I am fluent in it, and yet I often miss textual signs (my brain filters them out). Luckily, that's not a big problem, since Canada doesn't use many textual signs that are of big importance.

My brain is used to textual signs providing information such as direction, street names, and even random things like advertisements, so a sign conveying important legal information in the form of text would usually be filtered out if I just glance at it, whereas a pictorial sign wouldn't be.

I don't even like our North American speed limit signs, since they don't quite catch attention. I often find that I am not sure what the exact speed limit is on a particular unfamiliar road, since they're quite easy to miss.

A big problem with the signs here is that they aren't quite standardized. While there are a few classes of signs (e.g. the yellow warning signs, which I actually like quite a lot, and the direction signs), some classes aren't consistent in their shape, colour, and form. Another problem is that it seems that anyone can introduce random signs whenever they see fit, even if the signs do not actually exist in any official highway code or law (since certain guidelines, like the FHWA, seem to be more like recommendations than binding legislation). I still cannot get over the sentence in the Ontario Driver's Handbook, "This chapter shows you what many of those signs, lights and markings look like and explains what they mean to drivers." - this implies that it does not cover all of them, but just "gives you the general idea" And I have encountered signs in the past that I've never seen before in any theory books.
__________________
Check out my driving videos on Youtube | Please visit the Highways & Autobahns forum
TheCat no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2008, 06:16 PM   #100
Verso
Islander
 
Verso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ljubljana
Posts: 22,088
Likes (Received): 4752

When I think about it, it isn't that confusing, it's not like any sign suggests overtaking is mandatory. You just use some logic, if you aren't sure, whether a sign prohibits sth, or ends a prohibition (which you should've noticed before).

Last edited by Verso; October 21st, 2008 at 07:40 PM.
Verso no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium