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Old October 31st, 2008, 01:58 PM   #141
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And 4-way stops wouldn't be annoying?
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Old October 31st, 2008, 03:59 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
Yeah and whose going to take "several minutes" to reeducate the hundreds of millions of motorists on the roads.
those who can see the benefit of less lives lost on the road, less time to learn in the future, no need to spend a lot more time to learn what signs mean when going elsewhere in the world, the benefit of not relying on people being literate.
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Meanwhile the more practical and logical English signs which take no extra explanation are being done away with.
They aren't more practical, or more logical - if they were, Europe wouldn't have changed over in the 60s. They do need extra explanation, simply as they are written in awful English, with lots of jargon, that requires thinking about what it actually means.
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I think 20 years from now civil engineers will take a look at this idiocy and say, "Gee, we're an English speaking country
The US has no official language. Rather a lot of people speak Spanish as a first language (and often English as a second language). This will be exacerbated in future years. Parts of the South West/Texas are already Spanish majority areas, these will just grow.
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Old October 31st, 2008, 04:30 PM   #143
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Yeah and whose going to take "several minutes" to reeducate the hundreds of millions of motorists on the roads.

Meanwhile the more practical and logical English signs which take no extra explanation are being done away with. Why? To appease folks like Von Krautburger who have a fetish for Euro style things.

I think 20 years from now civil engineers will take a look at this idiocy and say, "Gee, we're an English speaking country, we can make driving a lot simpler and intuitive for most Americans by changing these abstract picture signs into text ones!"
Do you actually read NO ENTRY when you come across that sign, or you don't need to, b/c you can recognize it from afar by its look? (be careful how you reply, you don't wanna turn out a fool)
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Old November 1st, 2008, 05:34 PM   #144
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Paddington, do you think we should replace the yellow diamond warning signs that show a curve to the left with one that spells it out: "ALL TRAFFIC MUST TURN SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT JUST AHEAD"?

Or, how about a yellow diamond that shows a road entering from the right with:

"ATTENTION. THERE IS A STREET ENTERING FROM THE RIGHT 100 YARDS AHEAD".
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Old November 27th, 2008, 07:48 AM   #145
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No offense, but California's signs may be the ugliest in the nation. They look so old.

And I think that it's pathetic that they didn't have exit numbers until recently. I know it's a big state, but come on! They should be a leader in signage, but instead end up having the crappiest ones.

Second crappiest would be Connecticut, but they are on the track of (slowly) updating their signs, but unfortunately they still have sequential exit numbering. Only three states in the Northeast (PA, NJ, ME) have mile-based exit numbering. Pathetic!
Not really 10ROT. Think of I95 in CT. The junctions are too close together to use a mileage based exit numbering system. Same with I91 and I84 in the Hartford area. the exits/entrances are simply too close together to use the mileage system of numbering
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Old November 27th, 2008, 08:11 AM   #146
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Not really 10ROT. Think of I95 in CT. The junctions are too close together to use a mileage based exit numbering system. Same with I91 and I84 in the Hartford area. the exits/entrances are simply too close together to use the mileage system of numbering
What's wrong with using letters (i.e. Exit 21A, 21B, etc) if several exits fall within the same mile interval? That's how they do it in most of metropolitan areas, and it works just fine. Plus, I don't think it is possible to build more than 3 exits in the same mile, so it is not as if you will ever run out of letters
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Old November 27th, 2008, 10:30 AM   #147
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A Chicago exit has J added to the exit number. That means there are 10 exits within the mile!
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Old November 27th, 2008, 11:07 AM   #148
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Probably not. An exit every 160 meters? Be serious.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 11:14 AM   #149
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Check it out:

[IMG]http://i35.************/333lj5c.jpg[/IMG]
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Old November 27th, 2008, 05:58 PM   #150
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Holy shit, I guess you don't have to make a big detour if you miss your exit
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Old November 27th, 2008, 07:18 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Motorway guide signs

Before, a splitting motorway sign looked like this:


______________________

Not anymore! One of the biggest improvements in motorway signage in America, in my opinion. Now, it looks much better.

I wrote to FHWA during the public comment period to disagree with this change. FHWA's proposed revision to the MUTCD would have removed the option of using stippled-arrow diagrammatics even in situations where they had been shown to be useful (left exits, changes of route number on the through route, unusual geometry through the interchange, exits in rapid succession, etc.).

Meanwhile, the proposed replacement is specialized to address the optional lane problem and does not have the flexibility to handle unusual geometry or exits in rapid succession. The requirement to have arrows centered over each lane also means that a one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatic can be very large compared to a stippled-arrow diagrammatic conveying the same information.

Some other concerns I had included the following:

* The stippled-arrow diagrammatic was extensively field-tested in the 1970's, with specimen signs installed in about 20 states. This experimentation allowed design rules to be refined. Nothing comparable to this research effort has been done for one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatics. There is systematic use of such diagrammatics in a few locations (e.g., TxDOT's Houston district) as well as a few isolated installations in about four states, but there is little evidence of design optimization in the literature and also substantial variations in design in the field.

* Stippled-arrow diagrammatics also have better glance legibility from longer distances than one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatics, simply because the arrows are larger. Detailed lane assignment information can be, and normally is, conveyed by other signs.

* There are other possible approaches to the optional-lane problem which use the downward-pointing arrow.

The full text of all responses to the MUTCD rulemaking, including mine, are online. I have not surveyed the state DOT responses to get an idea of whether a majority are opposed to eliminating the stippled-arrow diagrammatic. However, with considerable help from regular readers of Usenet newsgroup misc.transport.road, I did a survey of current usage and discovered that stippled-arrow diagrammatics are used in over 40 states. Given that the stippled-arrow diagrammatic has a more secure basis in research, and the much smaller number and much greater diversity in design of one-arrow-per-lane signs, my guess is that most state DOTs that expressed an opinion on the change disagreed with it.

My personal position, which some state DOTs may or may not agree with, is that the stippled-arrow diagrammatic should be retained in the MUTCD while the one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatic should be added as an option to deal with difficult optional-lane cases.

This is not the first time FHWA has tried to introduce a one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatic. The last major revision of the MUTCD appeared in 2003, and was preceded by a lengthy rulemaking exercise in 2002 during which FHWA suggested that one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatics, as shown in the Older Drivers Handbook, should be added to the MUTCD. A lot of commenters, including several state DOTs and myself, objected that there was no secure basis in research and no evidence of design optimization, and the proposal did not make it into the 2003 MUTCD.

Between 2003 and 2008 the major piece of additional work on the one-arrow-per-lane concept has been a tachistoscope study by Katz and Golembiewski. That was basically a proof of the overall concept rather than an investigation of design detail and possible adaptations of the concept to meet difficult situations. There has been no field work, and precious little evidence of state DOTs putting these signs in construction plans.

My guess and hope is that FHWA will acknowledge that the case for adding one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatics to the MUTCD is marginal at best, and the stippled-arrow diagrammatics will be saved. But we shall see.

In response to the use of present tense indicative, rather than subjunctive, in the OP and some of the replies, I have to stress that these are just proposals which have been advanced as part of the rulemaking process. Quite a few of these proposals will probably fall by the wayside before the new MUTCD appears in 2009 or 2010.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 08:25 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Timon91 View Post
Isn't that the conservative mentality? A busy 4-way stop is very unhandy, I agree. However, it shouldn't be too much, in the Netherlands and the UK there are very much roundabouts right now, and when driving a long distance on secundary roads (especially in the UK) it can get quite annoying.
In Norway, the 80s was the first true roundabout decade. Now, roundabouts are built when all sorts of roads intersect, and things have gotten seriously out of hand: The new E6 under construction at Stjřrdal, for instance: 4 lanes, dubbed "motorway" by the public, but with 3 roundabouts - 2 of those when the E6 meet local traffic... The proposed new 100 kph 4-lane motorway bridge across lake Mjřsa will - just as the current 2-lane expressway - meet the rv 4 in a roundabout. All three roads have an AADT close to or above 10,000, and at least the E6 is proposed as a full motorway further north as well...
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Old November 28th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
I wrote to FHWA during the public comment period to disagree with this change. FHWA's proposed revision to the MUTCD would have removed the option of using stippled-arrow diagrammatics even in situations where they had been shown to be useful (left exits, changes of route number on the through route, unusual geometry through the interchange, exits in rapid succession, etc.).

Meanwhile, the proposed replacement is specialized to address the optional lane problem and does not have the flexibility to handle unusual geometry or exits in rapid succession. The requirement to have arrows centered over each lane also means that a one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatic can be very large compared to a stippled-arrow diagrammatic conveying the same information.

Some other concerns I had included the following:

* The stippled-arrow diagrammatic was extensively field-tested in the 1970's, with specimen signs installed in about 20 states. This experimentation allowed design rules to be refined. Nothing comparable to this research effort has been done for one-arrow-per-lane diagrammatics. There is systematic use of such diagrammatics in a few locations (e.g., TxDOT's Houston district) as well as a few isolated installations in about four states, but there is little evidence of design optimization in the literature and also substantial variations in design in the field.
.




This is an example from the Houston district of what he's talking about, and I think it does an effective job of indicating exits in rapid succession. Admittedly, it is a very Euro-style sign, then again, this is extremely close to the airport, which is supportive of an international style.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 04:50 PM   #154
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Cool sign!
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Old November 28th, 2008, 06:04 PM   #155
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It's fun to see this new signage appearing
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Old November 28th, 2008, 06:47 PM   #156
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Much better than others I remember from back in UT.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 08:22 PM   #157
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Check it out:

[IMG]http://i35.************/333lj5c.jpg[/IMG]


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Old November 28th, 2008, 10:23 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ADCS View Post


This is an example from the Houston district of what he's talking about, and I think it does an effective job of indicating exits in rapid succession. Admittedly, it is a very Euro-style sign, then again, this is extremely close to the airport, which is supportive of an international style.
European or not, this sign is more clear and informative than those old stippled-arrow ones. In California, I saw several of them, and I should say that putting broken lines inside them doesn't make any sense because driving at 120 km/h it is impossible to count them anyway.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 12:13 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
European or not, this sign is more clear and informative than those old stippled-arrow ones. In California, I saw several of them, and I should say that putting broken lines inside them doesn't make any sense because driving at 120 km/h it is impossible to count them anyway.
I'd agree. Being from Houston, I never saw the big arrow signs growing up, and the only one on I-45 (in a rural area) was replaced about 10 years ago. Not a huge loss.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 12:24 AM   #160
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They're the only ones you see in Utah, hope to see them go away in the near future.
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