General Chat Thread - Page 10

tomo90 · February 23rd, 2011, 01:02 AM

I am with Ste and Nathan. Newcastle is really similar to Liverpool in many aspects but it still lacks something that Liverpool has, a certain vibe that I cannot explain. I cant wait to move back in May.

Joe the red · February 23rd, 2011, 10:34 PM

Woody - I'd like to echo DM's sentiments and hope your family and friends are safe and doing as well as can be expected.

Babaloo · February 24th, 2011, 10:40 AM

Heartbreaking time for all concerned and the news this morning is that the death toll will be much higher than first expected.

Nathan4 · February 27th, 2011, 05:50 PM

Visited home this weekend and went out round town but noticed the litter problem in the surrounding areas of the shopping district seems to be getting worse, ie. Ranelagh Street, Renshaw Street/Lime Street, Hardman Street...real shame because it really spoils walking round the city .

Matthias Corvinus · April 8th, 2011, 11:20 AM

If anyone else is frustrated at the lack of recent satellite imagery on Google Maps in Liverpool, please register your interest here: http://followyourworld.appspot.com/?...405&lng=-2.984.

I think if they receive enough requests they may buy the imagery from the satellite operators.

Cheers!!

AnonyMiss · April 10th, 2011, 01:01 AM

I think street view needs to be updated because i'm tired of trying to find recent images and finding images from 2008! Liverpool seems to change more than other cities and you'd think Google could afford to update a bit quicker.

Babaloo · April 28th, 2011, 10:15 AM

I'm voting YES

(1) It's fairer and, hopefully, it will mean that the country isn't ruled by a party with less than 45% of the popular vote.

(2) It might force politicians to canvas a wider section of their constituency and even if it doesn't it still affords elected representatives more legitimacy to speak on behalf of the whole constituency.

(3) My first choice can be the one that is closest to my own values - not that it makes any difference in Liverpool!

(4) I'm hoping that it will lead to greater differentiation within the con-lab-lib consensus.

(5) All the politicians I dislike want to keep it - so a potential pleasure to savour there if it goes the right way.

Having said all that, I suspect the country will vote NO

openlyJane · April 28th, 2011, 11:01 AM

...

Hans Groover · April 28th, 2011, 11:40 AM

I will also be voting yes, because the current system effectively acts as a block on new political parties, leading to the ossified, corrupt political class we see today.

However I have similar fears that the result will be No, largely as a result of the propaganda dumped through everyone's front door - which is so outrageously misleading that I'm struggling to understand how it's lawful.

Nathan4 · April 28th, 2011, 03:02 PM

I've found it harder to form an opinion about AV because I just can't remember how it works, when I studied it in my A Levels I remember being quick to criticise.

However as a Green I believe in a fairer system, but with the increased chances of hung parliaments I don't really like the idea of policy u-turns and pork-barrelling in order to get into office.

Pablo Diablo · April 28th, 2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaloo

I'm voting YES

(1) It's fairer and, hopefully, it will mean that the country isn't ruled by a party with less than 45% of the popular vote.

(2) It might force politicians to canvas a wider section of their constituency and even if it doesn't it still affords elected representatives more legitimacy to speak on behalf of the whole constituency.

(3) My first choice can be the one that is closest to my own values - not that it makes any difference in Liverpool!

(4) I'm hoping that it will lead to greater differentiation within the con-lab-lib consensus.

(5) All the politicians I dislike want to keep it - so a potential pleasure to savour there if it goes the right way.

Having said all that, I suspect the country will vote NO

I'm voting yes for mostly the same reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan4

I've found it harder to form an opinion about AV because I just can't remember how it works, when I studied it in my A Levels I remember being quick to criticise.

However as a Green I believe in a fairer system, but with the increased chances of hung parliaments I don't really like the idea of policy u-turns and pork-barrelling in order to get into office.

Hung parliaments will become more and more likely under FPTP. The combined Lab/Con vote share has dropped from around 90% in the 1950s to 65% in 2010. If this trend carries on (and it most likely will), hung parliaments (like the one we got last year under FPTP!) will occur more often.

Nathan4 · April 29th, 2011, 01:51 AM

For you anti-royalists out there:

http://davelee.tumblr.com/post/50113...io-caller-ever

tomo90 · April 29th, 2011, 02:47 PM

I am swinging towards YES because of the same reasons. I am basically fed up of the Labour and Conservative cycle. Some people argue that parties like the BNP will get more seats and of course that is a negative of AV but if people in this country vote for the BNP then isnt that democracy? I am against them 100% as I am one of those people they hate (gay) and I think their opinions on ethnic minorities are disgusting but we live in a democracy.

Martin S · April 29th, 2011, 11:26 PM

I won't be voting on the 5th because a work committment takes me to Cornwall and I haven't had time to arrange a postal vote.

If I was voting though, I would definitely go for AV. As I see it, the system that we have at present can allow a minority party with very small electoral support to get an MP simply by the alternative votes being split.

For example, here in Liverpool we have a weak Tory vote and the centre left vote is divided between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. We can also have popular candidates standing as independents and the traditional Liberal Party. If we include the BNP, that could make six candidates for one seat. In that situation, it is easy to see how the BNP with only 20% of the vote could send an MP to parliament.

In the AV system, a Tory voter seeing that there was little chance of their candidate winning the seat may give their second vote to the Lib-Dems and a Labour voter to an independent. That would mean that each voters first preference would be registered and the person who did get elected would do so by having their first preference votes augmented by the second preferences of other voters.

The BNP can win under such a system but only if they have enough support amongst other voters who would see them as the best alternative.

That's how I see it anyhow and I probably haven't thought of everything. However, surely the best electoral system is that which elects people as close as possible to the wishes of the electorate.

Babaloo · May 3rd, 2011, 10:19 AM

Almost everyone I know is voting yes - whereas opinion polls suggest that the no vote has a substantial lead.

I'm hoping that the pollsters have got the 'weighting' all wrong!

Pablo Diablo · May 3rd, 2011, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaloo

Almost everyone I know is voting yes - whereas opinion polls suggest that the no vote has a substantial lead.

I'm hoping that the pollsters have got the 'weighting' all wrong!

I'm hoping a lot of the people that say they'll vote no will actually just stay at home

Neilsatiscitycentre · May 4th, 2011, 11:16 AM

My first choice is yes, and my second is no.

design_man · May 4th, 2011, 11:42 PM

I have to vote no.

I am a life-long supporter of proportional representation.

AV is a very small improvement on the current system, is not proportional, and if we get AV we will probably never get PR: Britain doesn't have "evolution" or "stepping stones" in these matters, if we reform for AV we won't get PR in our lifetimes.

Turnouts in many elections are worryingly low, and I worry that with AV people will be confused and put off even more. AV asks people to make "3D" and very complex judgements about relative choices and priorities, and to always be tactical. With fptp tactical voting is clearer and more explicit. You vote for who you want to win, not make a series of complex judgements and assumptions about how others will vote. Democracy should be clearly representative, and nothing is clearer than ticking a box for someone you want to represent you.

FPTP has delivered a strong stable democracy in this country, including minority and coalition Government's. I believe a proportional system would be stronger, but AV doesn't offer us that. So I really don't see the point in opting for it. It's like you need to go somewhere, there is a bus that will take you there (but no sign of when it's due), and a bus comes along that takes you somewhere miles from where you need to go to, so you get on it to get away from the bus-stop and stop the wait. But it means you miss the bus you really needed, and don't get to where you needed to get to.

design_man · May 4th, 2011, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaloo

Almost everyone I know is voting yes - whereas opinion polls suggest that the no vote has a substantial lead.

I'm hoping that the pollsters have got the 'weighting' all wrong!

Most people I know are no voters, and I've recruited another "yes" voter to the "no" cause this evening. I can live with AV, it's not the end of the world, but it's barely an improvement and I will be very disappointed if we lose the momentum towards real reform.

Medici · May 5th, 2011, 01:16 AM

I'm voting NO for two reasons, firstly AV is an elitist and undemocratic system. Secondly this issue will probably return and I really do think Nick Clegg has made a serious breach of trust with people by embracing Thatcherite economics. Therefore I'm also voting NO to spoil his party, his sincere pleas to people before the general election turned out to be hollow and the histrionics of certain leading Lib Dems recently simply because the majority of the public do not want AV is disgraceful.

February 23rd, 2011, 10:34 PM	#182
Joe the red Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Liverpool Posts: 3,758 Likes (Received): 1	Woody - I'd like to echo DM's sentiments and hope your family and friends are safe and doing as well as can be expected. __________________ There is surely nothing worse than washing sieves With the possible exception of being Garth Crooks

April 28th, 2011, 10:15 AM	#187
Babaloo Fiat Lux Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,598 Likes (Received): 0	How are you voting in the AV ballot next week? I'm voting YES (1) It's fairer and, hopefully, it will mean that the country isn't ruled by a party with less than 45% of the popular vote. (2) It might force politicians to canvas a wider section of their constituency and even if it doesn't it still affords elected representatives more legitimacy to speak on behalf of the whole constituency. (3) My first choice can be the one that is closest to my own values - not that it makes any difference in Liverpool! (4) I'm hoping that it will lead to greater differentiation within the con-lab-lib consensus. (5) All the politicians I dislike want to keep it - so a potential pleasure to savour there if it goes the right way. Having said all that, I suspect the country will vote NO

April 28th, 2011, 11:01 AM	#188
openlyJane Human Being Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Liverpool Posts: 11,164 Likes (Received): 1811	... Last edited by openlyJane; November 7th, 2011 at 11:34 AM.

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February 23rd, 2011, 01:02 AM	#181
tomo90 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Liverpool Posts: 2,121 Likes (Received): 44	I am with Ste and Nathan. Newcastle is really similar to Liverpool in many aspects but it still lacks something that Liverpool has, a certain vibe that I cannot explain. I cant wait to move back in May.

February 24th, 2011, 10:40 AM	#183
Babaloo Fiat Lux Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,598 Likes (Received): 0	Heartbreaking time for all concerned and the news this morning is that the death toll will be much higher than first expected.

February 27th, 2011, 05:50 PM	#184
Nathan4 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Liverpool (Home), Manchester (University) Posts: 246 Likes (Received): 0	Visited home this weekend and went out round town but noticed the litter problem in the surrounding areas of the shopping district seems to be getting worse, ie. Ranelagh Street, Renshaw Street/Lime Street, Hardman Street...real shame because it really spoils walking round the city .

April 8th, 2011, 11:20 AM	#185
Matthias Corvinus Registered User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: London/Liverpool Posts: 235 Likes (Received): 0	If anyone else is frustrated at the lack of recent satellite imagery on Google Maps in Liverpool, please register your interest here: http://followyourworld.appspot.com/?...405&lng=-2.984. I think if they receive enough requests they may buy the imagery from the satellite operators. Cheers!!

April 10th, 2011, 01:01 AM	#186
AnonyMiss Registered User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 90 Likes (Received): 0	I think street view needs to be updated because i'm tired of trying to find recent images and finding images from 2008! Liverpool seems to change more than other cities and you'd think Google could afford to update a bit quicker.

April 28th, 2011, 11:40 AM	#189
Hans Groover Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 252 Likes (Received): 1	I will also be voting yes, because the current system effectively acts as a block on new political parties, leading to the ossified, corrupt political class we see today. However I have similar fears that the result will be No, largely as a result of the propaganda dumped through everyone's front door - which is so outrageously misleading that I'm struggling to understand how it's lawful.

April 28th, 2011, 03:02 PM	#190
Nathan4 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Liverpool (Home), Manchester (University) Posts: 246 Likes (Received): 0	I've found it harder to form an opinion about AV because I just can't remember how it works, when I studied it in my A Levels I remember being quick to criticise. However as a Green I believe in a fairer system, but with the increased chances of hung parliaments I don't really like the idea of policy u-turns and pork-barrelling in order to get into office.

April 29th, 2011, 01:51 AM	#192
Nathan4 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Liverpool (Home), Manchester (University) Posts: 246 Likes (Received): 0	For you anti-royalists out there: http://davelee.tumblr.com/post/50113...io-caller-ever

April 29th, 2011, 02:47 PM	#193
tomo90 Registered User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Liverpool Posts: 2,121 Likes (Received): 44	I am swinging towards YES because of the same reasons. I am basically fed up of the Labour and Conservative cycle. Some people argue that parties like the BNP will get more seats and of course that is a negative of AV but if people in this country vote for the BNP then isnt that democracy? I am against them 100% as I am one of those people they hate (gay) and I think their opinions on ethnic minorities are disgusting but we live in a democracy.

April 29th, 2011, 11:26 PM	#194
Martin S LIVERPOOL England Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 6,523 Likes (Received): 46	I won't be voting on the 5th because a work committment takes me to Cornwall and I haven't had time to arrange a postal vote. If I was voting though, I would definitely go for AV. As I see it, the system that we have at present can allow a minority party with very small electoral support to get an MP simply by the alternative votes being split. For example, here in Liverpool we have a weak Tory vote and the centre left vote is divided between Labour and the Liberal Democrats. We can also have popular candidates standing as independents and the traditional Liberal Party. If we include the BNP, that could make six candidates for one seat. In that situation, it is easy to see how the BNP with only 20% of the vote could send an MP to parliament. In the AV system, a Tory voter seeing that there was little chance of their candidate winning the seat may give their second vote to the Lib-Dems and a Labour voter to an independent. That would mean that each voters first preference would be registered and the person who did get elected would do so by having their first preference votes augmented by the second preferences of other voters. The BNP can win under such a system but only if they have enough support amongst other voters who would see them as the best alternative. That's how I see it anyhow and I probably haven't thought of everything. However, surely the best electoral system is that which elects people as close as possible to the wishes of the electorate.

May 3rd, 2011, 10:19 AM	#195
Babaloo Fiat Lux Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,598 Likes (Received): 0	Almost everyone I know is voting yes - whereas opinion polls suggest that the no vote has a substantial lead. I'm hoping that the pollsters have got the 'weighting' all wrong!

May 4th, 2011, 11:16 AM	#197
Neilsatiscitycentre Registered User Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 494 Likes (Received): 3	My first choice is yes, and my second is no.

May 4th, 2011, 11:42 PM	#198
design_man Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 2,200 Likes (Received): 31	I have to vote no. I am a life-long supporter of proportional representation. AV is a very small improvement on the current system, is not proportional, and if we get AV we will probably never get PR: Britain doesn't have "evolution" or "stepping stones" in these matters, if we reform for AV we won't get PR in our lifetimes. Turnouts in many elections are worryingly low, and I worry that with AV people will be confused and put off even more. AV asks people to make "3D" and very complex judgements about relative choices and priorities, and to always be tactical. With fptp tactical voting is clearer and more explicit. You vote for who you want to win, not make a series of complex judgements and assumptions about how others will vote. Democracy should be clearly representative, and nothing is clearer than ticking a box for someone you want to represent you. FPTP has delivered a strong stable democracy in this country, including minority and coalition Government's. I believe a proportional system would be stronger, but AV doesn't offer us that. So I really don't see the point in opting for it. It's like you need to go somewhere, there is a bus that will take you there (but no sign of when it's due), and a bus comes along that takes you somewhere miles from where you need to go to, so you get on it to get away from the bus-stop and stop the wait. But it means you miss the bus you really needed, and don't get to where you needed to get to.

May 5th, 2011, 01:16 AM	#200
Medici Beppo Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,979 Likes (Received): 2	I'm voting NO for two reasons, firstly AV is an elitist and undemocratic system. Secondly this issue will probably return and I really do think Nick Clegg has made a serious breach of trust with people by embracing Thatcherite economics. Therefore I'm also voting NO to spoil his party, his sincere pleas to people before the general election turned out to be hollow and the histrionics of certain leading Lib Dems recently simply because the majority of the public do not want AV is disgraceful.