"Destination Kirkby" Public Inquiry

[Bay City]

Originally Posted by Keayman

You're of course right in suggesting we keep those lovely large Victorian properties in favour of the Wimpey paper thin matchboxes but you'll upset Bay city as they're just fuel poverty traps to him.

What we needs is superinsulation in new and reconditioned homes. Although it is generally cheaper to raze an old house and start again. PVs solar panels as standard on roof tops, etc, etc. Better urban design reducing the need for car use, etc. Look at Poundbury for good urban design on a human scale - people do not drive to supermarkets to shop.

Controversially, zoning was spurned and industry and people mix (people live over the shop, so to say, and literally do). It could have gone better in superinsulation and solar though - that is where it lacked.
Poundbury 1

Poundbury 2

These are new buildings:






Architects do not like Poundbury as it is regarded as pastiche. It works...well it works well. BTW, I am no fan of Prince Charles being a confirmed republican. But building on a human scale is the answer, the aesthetics are secondary.

British towns, villages and city districts that are appealing are always on a human scale - the same goes for most European countries. They organically emerged over hundreds of years. The buildings and streets emerged as human need arose. People like that. Yet we plan, doing zones with shopping malls, etc, which entails using a car.

Poundbury is new and is designed just like an organically derived village/town. People love living in Poundbury and the older towns and villages, yet few Poundburys are being built.

Places designed on a human scale - you feel an attachment to the place. A bonding, an inner feeling of belonging. It doesn't have to be old to have that feeling.

[Babaloo]

It's now or never for Everton stadium plan, says chief exec
Dec 3 2008 by Richard Down
Still writing for Trinny North West


EVERTON FC’s chief executive yesterday told a public inquiry the club could not afford to miss the current “window of opportunity” to build its new stadium.

Failure to land the inspector’s approval for a new club home would lead to a “vicious circle” of decline for one of the world’s most prestigious clubs, Robert Elstone told the inquiry in Kirkby.

Mr Elstone, who began his evidence late yesterday, said: “The club has already incurred delays and any further delays means I can’t commit. Should this window close, opportunity for substantial improvements looks highly limited.”

His analysis followed evidence from Philip David Coles, Tesco’s development director, who warned the supermarket giant could take its proposed investment in the £400m stadium and retail project overseas. Mr Coles said: “If this proposal is not approved, my board may decide that its money, particularly in the current economic climate, is best invested elsewhere, either in the UK or more likely in the growing markets overseas.”

Their combined warnings, which are among the first officially put before the inquiry, follow a series of similar threats over the last 18 months from the applicants and Knowsley Council.

Mr Elstone yesterday went on to explain Everton’s club debt was rising, and being able to buy or nurture the players needed for a top-flight side was dependent on the new stadium going ahead.

He said: “If this project fails, the club’s on-pitch performance risks deteriorating rapidly. A deterioration on pitch leads to a probable further reduction in total revenue, particularly in valuable broadcasting revenue, which in turn leads to further on-pitch declines – the club would effectively enter a vicious circle.”

The levels of success achieved in recent years were largely down to the skill of manager David Moyes, he said, adding: “However, I consider this is not sustainable in the short to medium term as other clubs build higher quality playing squads, attracting the best players for higher wages.”

He revealed the full size of the financial pressures on the club. Net deb had risen from £19.5m three seasons ago to £36.7m.

He pointed out that the club’s directors had also tried to claw back money by making the most of the club’s former Bellefield training ground. But Patrick Clarkson, Everton and Tesco’s barrister, reminded the hearing that even this plan was subject to the planning appeal which concluded last week in Liverpool, with the result not yet known.

Mr Elstone’s assessment of Everton’s plight was compounded by the growth and success of its rivals, he said. While Everton’s Premier League rivals had added 130,000 seats to their stadia and the average attendance had risen by 23%, Everton’s attendance figures had gone up by about 500.

Changing rooms, corporate hospitality – which Mr Clarkson termed “a tent in the car park”– disabled facilities, toilets and concourses were all massively sub-standard at Goodison Park. The proposed stadium would tackle all these issues and allow the club to attract a potentially lucrative naming deal for the ground, drawing in vital cash.

But it was not just the club that Mr Elstone said stood to benefit from the club’s move to Kirkby. He said: “Premier League clubs can deliver additional place marketing and civic pride to their towns or cities. All aspects of the town have the potential to benefit from this exposure.” But it was the impact of Everton in the Community on Kirkby that Mr Elstone spent longest on.
He underlined the importance to Kirkby of the club’s disability programme, study centre, Kickz initiative involving 8,500 youngsters, race and diversity strategy, schools programmes, soccer camps and women’s football work.

Today, these claims will be cross-examined by the raft of opponents to the club’s plans.

A truckload of bull and then some.

[Bay City]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

A truckload of bull and then some.

What did you think was lies?

[Keayman]

Everton's Kirkby inquiry: It’s ‘full-time for Goodison Park’
Dec 3 2008 by Richard Down, Liverpool Echo

1 2 next »

Goodison Park 198 x78

THERE was “not even a glimmer of hope” that Goodison Park would be redeveloped, the public inquiry into Everton’s proposed move to Kirkby was told today.

The club’s acting chief executive Robert Elstone, under cross-examination by Liverpool council, said: “All our work has shown redeveloping on the existing site is so prohibitively expensive we could never once see even a glimmer of light allowing us to take such an approach seriously.”

Full report: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/evert...0252-22395123/


.

[Babaloo]

Originally Posted by Bay City

What did you think was lies?

Do you mean apart from the spurious rationale being offered?

[eyeam]

I've been following the inquiry very closely.

Everton and Tesco are tripping over their own lies and half truths at every turn. None of this adds up and the proposal will be rightly thrown out.

[Bay City]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

Do you mean apart from the spurious rationale being offered?

No. I mean.."What did you think was lies?"

[mm2259]

Originally Posted by Bay City

What did you think was lies?

This bit:

"one of the world’s most prestigious clubs"

sorry, but somebody had to do it.

[Babaloo]

Originally Posted by Bay City

No. I mean.."What did you think was lies?"

You might want to google the word 'bullshit'. It isn't a euphemism for telling lies.

[Babaloo]

We won’t feel financial sting of Everton FC moving

Dec 4 2008 by Richard Down, TNW.

WALTON MP Peter Kilfoyle dismissed Everton FC’s financial importance to his ward as “comic book economics”, a public inquiry heard yesterday.

The revelation came during the cross examination of Everton’s chief executive Robert Elstone.

Mr Elstone followed series of Tesco witnesses who have described the club as a major means of bringing regeneration and civic pride to Kirkby and also an important part of Walton’s make up.

But John Fleming, of Kirkby Residents Action Group (Krag), produced a letter from the Walton MP to Secretary of State Hazel Blears posted ahead of the call in decision.

In it Mr Kilfoyle said: “Arguments of regeneration are misleading in relation to Everton’s place in my constituency. It’s presence has arguably been an inhibiting factor in attempts to regenerate the area. (Liverpool) councillors have said there would be a hole left in the local (Walton) economy if Everton’s £51m turnover was relocated to Kirkby. This is comic book economics. Everton’s turnover has virtually no impact on Walton.”

Mr Fleming went on to ask whether any of Everton in the Community’s projects that Mr Elstone highlighted in his evidence on Tuesday were specific to Walton.

Mr Elstone replied: “No, but I believe that the economic value provided to the local community is a real factor. We have 200 people going in and out of the stadium every day; shopping in the local area and buying food. The reality is that we contribute and help sustain the local community.”

In addition, he added, the club is also working on producing a lasting legacy for the area should Destination Kirkby get the green light in 2009.

Mr Elstone suggested that redeveloping Goodison Park for housing would bring more families into the area providing more revenue for Walton. But Roger Lancaster, speaking for the combined authorities opposed to Everton’s plans, said the stadium bid was a commercial enterprise and had little to do with regeneration.

He said: “You are trying to steal a march on the competition, and I don’t blame you, by getting a stadium you can’t really afford, aren’t you?”

He suggested that the club did not urgently need to relocate and that the Kirkby plan was simply a means of Everton getting ahead of its rivals.

He added: “If the club is sold then the £52m will still be safe for the club and the owners will take away that value with them, won’t they?

“There would be an outcry if any hypothetical company got planning permission on these grounds to buy a factory and then sold out.”

Mr Elstone agreed that club owners Bill Kenwright had said the club was up for sale to the right buyer with the right attitude and there were clients who were looking for buyers.

But this was probably the case for most clubs in the Premier League.

He also repeated his belief that Everton were in immediate danger of falling behind their rivals, having “punched above their weight” for a long time.

Rather than stealing a march, this bid would shore up a club with a long heritage, he claimed.

richarddown

[Bay City]

Originally Posted by Babaloo

You might want to google the word 'bullshit'. It isn't a euphemism for telling lies.

So you can't point out any lies.

[Keayman]

Not particularly lies in that statement but opinions which are open to question.

For instance:

It's multi millionaires, nigh, billionaires that have allowed clubs above and around us to increase the size and quality of their playing squads. Now, you might argue that you have to have the stadia first to attract these but not all those teams have as yet moved elsewhere, and certainly not out of their city which holds another team who will then cream the next generation coming through.

If GP is the write off they say, then they've been unprofessional in allowing Tesco an exclusivity deal which rules the rest of the city's sites out and only Kirkby in. Relying solely on the Tesco money means we are in their hands where we go. Can that be right, it's like the tail wagging the dog.

[Bay City]

Originally Posted by Keayman

It's multi millionaires, nigh, billionaires that have allowed clubs above and around us to increase the size and quality of their playing squads. Now, you might argue that you have to have the stadia first to attract these but not all those teams have as yet moved elsewhere, and certainly not out of their city which holds another team who will then cream the next generation coming through.

Kirkby is in all intents a part of Liverpool - I will not suck that in.

The other Premier clubs at the top of the table, all have increased their stadia revenues, by capacity and/or greater facilities all around. That is plainly obvious. LFC have not but are building a new stadium, and have PP for it.

LFC are suffering as they can just about compete right now, which will dwindle over time, if the stadium is not built. LFC have not won a title in 17 years, which will stretch to 18 years in 5 months and looks to go way over 20 years.

If GP is the write off they say, then they've been unprofessional in allowing Tesco an exclusivity deal which rules the rest of the city's sites out and only Kirkby in. Relying solely on the Tesco money means we are in their hands where we go. Can that be right, it's like the tail wagging the dog.

If where they want to go, is the same place that EFC want to go then that is fine.

One point that stands out, is that EFC have punched above their weight and this in the long run cannot be sustained, unless stadia revenues are dramatically increased.

[Keayman]

And will Kirkby do that?. Charging 25%-50% extra which is what'll probably happen in a half empty stadium will be standing as still as we are now.

The best we could hope with Kirkby, if it happens, is the club is then sold to someone who can compete for the top players and then the fans will fill it, that's just how fickle fans are. Quality in, resulting in a higher league position or at least potential for it will get the crowds going again no matter where we are.

The worst thing can be is being situated in a no-mans land with no crowd, no sale, no revenue, no competing at the top and so still in the vicious circle they want to avoid.

Villa have jumped above us in the spending stakes without moving as well.

Utd renonated what they had.

[Bay City]

Originally Posted by Keayman

And will Kirkby do that?. Charging 25%-50% extra which is what'll probably happen in a half empty stadium will be standing as still as we are now.

Scare-mongering. It never happened elsewhere, so why should it happen at EFC?

Quality in, resulting in a higher league position or at least potential for it will get the crowds going again no matter where we are.

You have lost the plot. Sustaining a top class team with a poor income stadium unsustainable. As they said EFC has been punching above its weight, and it will not last.

Villa have jumped above us in the spending stakes without moving as well.

Villa cannot compete with Arsenal, Man U, etc for any length of time. They could win the title, however they cannot sustain the challenge indefinitely. The can. Get it?

[Babaloo]

Originally Posted by Bay City

So you can't point out any lies.

I'm sorry but I fail to see why I should have to. This idea of lying is a concotion of your own. I doubt very much that someone speaking at an inquiry would be foolish enough to be caught out in a outright lie. This is why I used the term 'bullshit'.

[the golden vision]

Robert Elstone has come very near it. He claimed last week,the new stadium would be a "top class" facility. The club,Tesco and its representaives conceded nearly a year go that the new stadium would be "mid range" There has been plenty of hyperbole,scaremongering and obfuscation from Tesco..in layman's terms..bullshit.

[Babaloo]

precisely!

[Tom Hughes]

Originally Posted by Bay City

Scare-mongering. It never happened elsewhere, so why should it happen at EFC?
You have lost the plot. Sustaining a top class team with a poor income stadium unsustainable. As they said EFC has been punching above its weight, and it will not last.
Villa cannot compete with Arsenal, Man U, etc for any length of time. They could win the title, however they cannot sustain the challenge indefinitely. The can. Get it?

Most clubs have not relocated including the most successful one mentioned above. NO club has relocated 8 miles outside the public transport focal point of their catchment city. Kirkby has a public transport capacity of less than 5k per hr (Which will easily be the lowest of any major football staium in the UK)..... this is a fraction of Walton's and miniscule in comparison to the city-centre Loop site..... and this in the city with the lowest car ownership in the UK at less than 40% of homes with access to their own vehicles. This and the complete absence of a season ticket waiting list alone will mean that EFC will not fill it, meaning surplus capacity that will not be paying for itself and further draining our resources. The heavy weight will then become a flyweight, nevermind punching above its weight...... not to mention the effects of marginalising the club by moving out of town and the effects on identity and lost heritage etc.

[Chippewa]

Sorry wrong thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!