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Old October 9th, 2015, 11:44 PM   #6521
Ghostface79
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Thanks for bringing some sanity to this discussion. The city is thriving and buildings are rising at a rate not seen since the 20's and at heights surpassing the twin towers, not to mention the diverse architecture of those buildings, but for some reason the "terrorists have one". It's a bit short sighted to focus on a tiny part of the city rather than how the city has evolved since then, cause based on the latter they have failed miserably.

Besides the WTC is a success, all the towers are being built or in the process of being built based on demand, which is how it should be in an established city like NYC. In fact I think they really would've won if we built the WTC based on some knee jerk reaction rather than the democratic and economically viable process that we went through. It wasn't perfect and sure it couldn't been faster but it worked out for all the parties involved and the WTC is bringing life to downtown again.
Now if i could throw a tantrum of my own, it would be to bring back Foster's 2WTC.
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Old October 9th, 2015, 11:49 PM   #6522
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Amen to that
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Old October 10th, 2015, 01:35 AM   #6523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYStruct View Post
I can understand some of your frustration with the pace on this project, but I disagree with your post and the one before on many levels...

I don't think the full completion of the project is ever going to completely remove the trauma of 9/11 and the anger, sadness and other emotions we felt that day, bring back the dead or be a big "screw you terrorists, whopdidoo we won". It's an important step in the healing process, and a symbol that we can rise again after falling. But these buildings are material objects made of steel and concrete and merely a manifestation of our "spirit" that should not be confused with our spirit itself. And terrorists did not win - if they had you might not be voicing your opinion on this forum the way you are.

Secondly, no matter how strong the symbol, there are also some economic realities in this world that just cannot be ignored (it's hard to feed on symbols only). WTC#3 could not be built before the financing was secured, which involved finding a tenant first. Same for WTC#2, but in this case the tenant put as a condition the redesign of the building which led to the switch to BIG's design. There could have been a lot of outrage if these towers had been built (with some public monies coming from the PA) only to sit empty for a while before being put on the market at a "discount" price and at a loss (especially after all the overruns for the Hub). In both cases waiting to get a deal with a tenant was a sensible thing to do - wanting the towers for "patriotic" reasons should not have driven to commit economic suicide.

No offense, but to me saying "I want this done now" without some understanding the intricacies and complexities of this project (from the standpoint of safety, engineering, economics and even politics) is a little childish and similar to a 6 years old throwing a tantrum because he wants to drive a Ferrari now... Sure I would like to see that site completed ASAP too, but I also know that you can't always get what you want (but if you try sometimes... you get what you need)

Just my 2 cents anyway - my apologies if I sounded harsh.

Oh and as far as the crane's position, NE and SW corners were the only sensible locations to cover most of the steel erection considering the interference with the core. In any other position, the cranes would not be able to erect as much steel because the core would be in the way.
No, the full completion of the new WTC complex will not remove the trauma of 9/11 that most of us endured that day. Then again in 50 to 100 years no one will care or feel the trauma of 9/11. Today, it is still fresh in everyone's minds. I understand the new complex is part of the healing process but it has taken way too long. You seem to have taken out of context what I meant when I said the terrorists won. I clearly said they got what they wanted that day, they destroyed the World Trade Center and killed innocent people. How does that indicate if any, a sign of loss for them? Ok, they lost their lives in the process because they were suicidal jihadists. I never said they defeated America, I just said they got what they wanted that day, which was to destroy the WTC only to kill thousands in the process. They did that. Period.

I understand that the economy was a major issue in determining if and when these Towers would be built. They didn't seem to have a problem building empty Towers when the original WTC was being built and during another financial crisis in the 60s & 70s. Of course they had to learn later on how much of a mistake that was. They could have started the new Towers without stopping and the tenants would have came because they would know the office space was being built. The PA had the money to build these buildings. It just shows the PA should not be involved in building office Towers. They wasted so much time is all I'm saying. I understand it would have been a loss for the PA, but last time I checked I thought these were all Silverstein's Towers so that leads me to my next point. Silverstein should have secured the financing himself for his three Towers but unfortunately he couldn't at first and the financial crisis didn't help him much either. He should have secured financing before 2008. He was dependent on the Port Authority for a lot but in all fairness to him, he didn't have much choice in the matter so he had to play ball. Plus he still has to pay the PA rent for being the WTC leaseholder. As for the PA, I doubt they are big money losers. They own 3 major airports, numerous bridges & tunnels, and the tolls will likely keep skyrocketing. Sure they have to pay to maintain everything but there hasn't been much of that from what I've seen at most their facilities and other services. If anything, we the toll payers are paying to have this new WTC built. So you damn right I'm going to (according to you) whine like a 6 year old. I know it won't get things done quicker but it should still be noted instead of having people praising the PA for doing a magnificent job.

You don't think I understand the complexities of this project? That's one of the points I made in my previous post, where I mentioned how safety should be a top priority. I get that this complex will take a lot longer to complete and I'm prepared to deal with that. I still have a right to voice my opinion on the current pace of construction. I'm sorry if it sounds like that of a 6 year old throwing a tantrum but I''m not the only person here who is frustrated. I have no choice but to deal with the slow progress. I will say this much. I am glad we have what we have completed right now. You weren't harsh, you have a right to your opinion too and I respect that.

Yeah I know those were the only places for the Tower 3 NE & SW cranes to be placed due to the core. It would not have been feasible anywhere else because the core is not made up of steel columns like Towers 1 & 4 were prior to the rebar and concrete being poured. However, the current positions aren't proving to be much useful either. I guess when comes down to it we just have to deal with that, despite how slow the process has been going.

Overall, I'm glad this new WTC is going to be finished within the next ten years. I'm glad Tower 3 is rising, despite the delays. This new complex does have so much potential to be the heart of Downtown and perhaps New York once again.
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Old October 10th, 2015, 08:29 PM   #6524
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With all the digressing aside, does anyone know when steel will once again commence?
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Old October 10th, 2015, 08:57 PM   #6525
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^ Been wondering that as well. I'm thinking after they finish putting the cocoon safety net maybe? Anyone know the deal with the SW crane as well? I pass the site frequently but can't really tell much of anything.
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Old October 10th, 2015, 09:28 PM   #6526
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I pass by the area all the time. Steel will resume once the cocoon is fully wrapped around the Tower. Safety first. Not much progress was made this week. The core however, continues to rise a floor per week.
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Old October 12th, 2015, 05:05 AM   #6527
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In one of the recent pics taken from the One World Observatory....a base structure for the new SW crane can be seen in place. But where is the crane itself? What is the reason for the delay in getting it installed???
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Old October 12th, 2015, 06:06 PM   #6528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorker2009 View Post
No, the full completion of the new WTC complex will not remove the trauma of 9/11 that most of us endured that day. Then again in 50 to 100 years no one will care or feel the trauma of 9/11. Today, it is still fresh in everyone's minds. I understand the new complex is part of the healing process but it has taken way too long. You seem to have taken out of context what I meant when I said the terrorists won. I clearly said they got what they wanted that day, they destroyed the World Trade Center and killed innocent people. How does that indicate if any, a sign of loss for them? Ok, they lost their lives in the process because they were suicidal jihadists. I never said they defeated America, I just said they got what they wanted that day, which was to destroy the WTC only to kill thousands in the process. They did that. Period.

I understand that the economy was a major issue in determining if and when these Towers would be built. They didn't seem to have a problem building empty Towers when the original WTC was being built and during another financial crisis in the 60s & 70s. Of course they had to learn later on how much of a mistake that was. They could have started the new Towers without stopping and the tenants would have came because they would know the office space was being built. The PA had the money to build these buildings. It just shows the PA should not be involved in building office Towers. They wasted so much time is all I'm saying. I understand it would have been a loss for the PA, but last time I checked I thought these were all Silverstein's Towers so that leads me to my next point. Silverstein should have secured the financing himself for his three Towers but unfortunately he couldn't at first and the financial crisis didn't help him much either. He should have secured financing before 2008. He was dependent on the Port Authority for a lot but in all fairness to him, he didn't have much choice in the matter so he had to play ball. Plus he still has to pay the PA rent for being the WTC leaseholder. As for the PA, I doubt they are big money losers. They own 3 major airports, numerous bridges & tunnels, and the tolls will likely keep skyrocketing. Sure they have to pay to maintain everything but there hasn't been much of that from what I've seen at most their facilities and other services. If anything, we the toll payers are paying to have this new WTC built. So you damn right I'm going to (according to you) whine like a 6 year old. I know it won't get things done quicker but it should still be noted instead of having people praising the PA for doing a magnificent job.

You don't think I understand the complexities of this project? That's one of the points I made in my previous post, where I mentioned how safety should be a top priority. I get that this complex will take a lot longer to complete and I'm prepared to deal with that. I still have a right to voice my opinion on the current pace of construction. I'm sorry if it sounds like that of a 6 year old throwing a tantrum but I''m not the only person here who is frustrated. I have no choice but to deal with the slow progress. I will say this much. I am glad we have what we have completed right now. You weren't harsh, you have a right to your opinion too and I respect that.

Yeah I know those were the only places for the Tower 3 NE & SW cranes to be placed due to the core. It would not have been feasible anywhere else because the core is not made up of steel columns like Towers 1 & 4 were prior to the rebar and concrete being poured. However, the current positions aren't proving to be much useful either. I guess when comes down to it we just have to deal with that, despite how slow the process has been going.

Overall, I'm glad this new WTC is going to be finished within the next ten years. I'm glad Tower 3 is rising, despite the delays. This new complex does have so much potential to be the heart of Downtown and perhaps New York once again.
Thanks for your answer and clarifications. As your post demonstrates, you clearly do have an understanding of the intricacies and complexities of that project - and I should probably have given you more credit than I did previously. You made some valid points, but there are still some that I strongly disagree with - like saying "in 50 to 100 years no one will care or feel the trauma of 9/11". To me it's like saying nobody cares what happened at Pearl Harbor, or during World War II... And yes the terrorists hit us and landed a blow that day, but that wasn't their end-game or a victory. What they really wanted was not just the destruction of the twin towers (it's not like they were some mad/ideologist architects who could not suffer these buildings and wanted them removed at all cost), but for us to live in fear and turn a blind eye to the other atrocities they are committing elsewhere for fear of retaliation.
While I understand (and to some extend share some of) the frustrations that you expressed regarding the slow pace of re-construction at the WTC site, I believe that we should all keep in mind that Rome was not built in one day and we should not let these frustrations get the best of us.

Now back on the topic at hand...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Dodd View Post
With all the digressing aside, does anyone know when steel will once again commence?
As someone pointed above, NYCC (the steel erector) has to complete the installation of the cocoon and I believe they also have to complete the welding of the vertical brace on the periphery (specifically West of the SW crane) before the steel erection can progress further. Some of the braces at the lower floors have have 2"-3" plates with full penetration welds - so getting all that welding done takes some time...
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Old October 12th, 2015, 08:04 PM   #6529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYStruct View Post
You made some valid points, but there are still some that I strongly disagree with - like saying "in 50 to 100 years no one will care or feel the trauma of 9/11". To me it's like saying nobody cares what happened at Pearl Harbor, or during World War II... And yes the terrorists hit us and landed a blow that day, but that wasn't their end-game or a victory. What they really wanted was not just the destruction of the twin towers (it's not like they were some mad/ideologist architects who could not suffer these buildings and wanted them removed at all cost), but for us to live in fear and turn a blind eye to the other atrocities they are committing elsewhere for fear of retaliation.
While I understand (and to some extend share some of) the frustrations that you expressed regarding the slow pace of re-construction at the WTC site, I believe that we should all keep in mind that Rome was not built in one day and we should not let these frustrations get the best of us.
You seem to have taken my words out of context again. That's ok though. What I meant by not caring, was that our future generations will not feel what we felt because they didn't live through it. Will they feel sentimental every time they visit the 9/11 Memorial & Museum? Absolutely, but they didn't live through it. They can't relate to people who lived through it. It's a totally different feeling is all I'm saying. I can't feel what the people who experienced Pearl Harbor felt because I didn't even exist. I'm sure you will feel something if you visit it, as would myself. However, I didn't live through it so I can't relate to people who experienced something traumatic like that, but I can relate by using my 9/11 experience, which I lived through. Same thing with these wars, we weren't there but we do feel something, although not as much as the soldiers who lived through it.

I already stated the terrorists did not defeat America. I said they won that day, meaning 9/11/2001. I didn't say they put us in a constant state of fear. I just said whatever they intended to get from that day they successfully pulled it off, which was to destroy the Towers. Creating a state of fear I'm sure they hoped would be a side effect from the devastation they caused and people were afraid in the days after. 9/12, our resilience as a country was stronger than ever.

I'm not letting the rebuilding process get the best of me. I don't let it control my daily life. Life goes on no matter how fast or slow the construction is. This is a forum to state an opinion, nothing more. Rome was not built in a day, nothing was. However, 8 1/2 years to build 1 Tower is a bit ridiculous don't you think?

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Old October 12th, 2015, 08:19 PM   #6530
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The core made some progress this morning, despite it being Columbus Day today.

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Old October 12th, 2015, 08:34 PM   #6531
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Eh because of the larger controversies surrounding Columbus Day less institutions and organizations are willing to be associated with it.
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Old October 12th, 2015, 10:03 PM   #6532
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I'm really disappointed with how progress has slowed to a painful crawl now.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 01:51 AM   #6533
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West Point / Duke Football Hudson River Trip by Jazz Guy, on Flickr
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Old October 13th, 2015, 04:30 PM   #6534
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What is going on right now?

What are those "blue curtains" for?

Are they cementing the steel floors?

Is the fire-proof being sprayed on ?

Are there elevators inside the core? How do the workers get up there everyday? Using the stairs?


And finally... WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE SW CRANE!
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Old October 13th, 2015, 05:31 PM   #6535
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About 'blue cocoon'.
Can anybody explain what is it for or at least tell how to search google about it?
Why they were able to erect steel structure till now without it and cannot continue construction withou it since now? Is it by law 'one caanot provide any construction work highter then N floors/yards/meters without special safety measures'?
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Old October 13th, 2015, 06:07 PM   #6536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by АмУх View Post
About 'blue cocoon'.
Can anybody explain what is it for or at least tell how to search google about it?
Why they were able to erect steel structure till now without it and cannot continue construction withou it since now? Is it by law 'one caanot provide any construction work highter then N floors/yards/meters without special safety measures'?
Might be because the structure is rising above some of the surrounding buildings and the wind may become more of a factor going forward in construction.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 06:24 PM   #6537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by АмУх View Post
About 'blue cocoon'.
Can anybody explain what is it for or at least tell how to search google about it?
Why they were able to erect steel structure till now without it and cannot continue construction withou it since now? Is it by law 'one caanot provide any construction work highter then N floors/yards/meters without special safety measures'?
A cocoon is some kind of vertical netting system used for the protection of unenclosed perimeters to prevent the fall of objects and/or construction workers into the streets - as required by NYC Building Code Section 3308.

While there are other means than using a sliding cocoon (such as the black or orange nets which were used on some of the lower floors), the cocoon can be elevated or "jumped" when the construction progress, which saves time, labor and money.

The cocoon was not installed before because it was not ready: the engineering/detailing needed to be approved first, then the system had to be fabricated, and then it has to be installed (which is ongoing).
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Last edited by NYStruct; October 13th, 2015 at 06:39 PM.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 06:36 PM   #6538
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Thanks a lot. Now it's look clear.
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Old October 13th, 2015, 06:37 PM   #6539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karimbo View Post
What is going on right now?

What are those "blue curtains" for?

Are they cementing the steel floors?

Is the fire-proof being sprayed on ?

Are there elevators inside the core? How do the workers get up there everyday? Using the stairs?


And finally... WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE SW CRANE!
Blue curtains are part of the cocoon, see my post above.
Yes they are - I believe they are getting ready for 13th/14th floors now.
Yes it is.
There is one external hoist complex with 4 cars on the South Side (Cortland St.), another external hoist complex with 4 cars on the East Side (Church St.), and 2 hoists (2 cars) inside the core. Stairs/ladders have to be used on the top 2-3 floors.
SW crane will not be erected before the external bracing on South side is fully welded + cocoon is erected (steel erection is unlikely to resume before the cocoon is installed).
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Old October 14th, 2015, 04:51 PM   #6540
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amazing
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